I will duck when I say this but the Duke game changed when they went into
The 3-2 zone and they pulled little Boozer and Foster took point. SJ had know idea of how to attack that zone and by the time they figured it out Duke was back in the game. Playing that 5-7 minutes of zone was effective.
86 Replies
4mo
Foster handled the pressure and took over offensively. Game changer
(In response to this post by David Cunningham)
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2hhoop3
4mo
with respect to defensive philosophy? In former times, teams good and bad often played multiple defenses, MTM, zone, zone press, box and one, etc. as it allowed them alternatives to adapt to specific game circumstances. I understand that time spent on multiple defenses takes away from mastering one, however, does anyone ever master a defense? As already stated elsewhere, MTM principles and a sound understanding can be a solid base for other schemes. It would be interesting to see info on what percentages of defense types teams might play.
(In response to this post by millmtnhokie)
4mo
Defense will always be playing catch-up.
Post players now have skills on the perimeter. This stretches zones and means there needs to be more nuance in teaching it than you did decades ago
This doesnt show up as much in middle school and high school where the skill level more closely resembles what the high school and college skill level was years ago.
(In response to this post by 2hhoop3)
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2hhoop3
4mo
and a change in skill levels seem one reasonable explanation. I would also imagine player movement among schools and "restrictions" on practice time limit teaching opportunities as well.
(In response to this post by GCHokie34)
4mo
While HS still has *some* restrictions on time limit, theyre not as strictly enforced as college. And especially once the season begins you typically have 2 games per week. You are also mandated to have an off day every 7 days. You have 20 hours total during the season each week with your players.
Games count as 3 hours, regardless of how long they last. So with 2 games youre down to 14 hours per week. Film sessions are counted rounding up with each hour. So an hour and a half of film counts as 2 hours.
So here would be a typical Wed/Sat game week schedule
Sunday: OFF
Monday: 1 hour film, 2 hours practice
Tuesday: 1 hour film, 2 hours practice
Wednesday: game (3 hours)
Thursday: 1 hour film, 2 hours practice
Friday: 1 hour film, 2 hours practice
Saturday: game (3 hours)
That's 18 hours. You have 2 hours to distribute between weight training, practice and film. You cant divide it up by the minute if you take 40 minutes of practice it counts for an hour. So you have to make decisions on what your team needs.
Now, if you'd like an exercise. Divide up a 2 hour practice and try to cover everything you need to cover both for your upcoming opponent and what you need as a team to grow and get better. Sometimes your prioritize the opponent, sometimes you need to concentrate on yourself. Sometimes you give them time for rest. Sometimes you give them weight workouts and shooting workouts.
But everything has a limit on time. And each new activity you add steals time from somewhere else.
(In response to this post by 2hhoop3)
4mo
and useless.? Besides according to top board guru - It takes 4 years worth of practice to learn it.
(In response to this post by millmtnhokie)
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VTCALS72
4mo
Isn't it correct to say that to try something you have not mastered is usually a disaster in the making?
(In response to this post by uber hokie)
4mo
Learner they are. Watch middle school and high school basketball and when a coach switches from M2M to zone.
I’ll make a jump and say everybody playing in the NCAA tournament should be able to switch M2M to zone, and of course different types of zones.
But we also know that can be an overstatement. There is always a weak link.
(In response to this post by VTCALS72)
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VTCALS72
4mo
if our players changed the "should" to could, both mentally and physically. On 2nd thought, naa, we would have made it if by some means we could have prevented the opponents hard drives to the basket. We could not. That and if we could hit layups better.
(In response to this post by Hokie1992)
4mo
Because the offensive skill level is way less than that of college. The time spent practicing and preparing for the zone is way less.
(In response to this post by Hokie1992)
4mo
Ive yet to meet a wall with a changed opinion
(In response to this post by VTCALS72)
4mo
Need more practice :)
(In response to this post by millmtnhokie)
4mo
Just an observation of how Duke overcame an 11 point deficit. Not long after Sellers hit the corner 3 Duke went back man to man.
(In response to this post by OrlandoHokie)
4mo
(In response to this post by millmtnhokie)
4mo
E apparently.
(In response to this post by 40ozDistrict)
4mo
Who have master degrees, doctorates, whatever title you want to have
And I promise you not a single one of them could run a proper zone consistently even after months of preparation
It isnt a matter of intelligence...but whatever you need to tell yourself I guess
(In response to this post by uber hokie)
4mo
Teaching and playing zone defense is NOT rocket science. It is no more difficult than man-to-man, it just has different strengths and weaknesses.
Only in Blacksburg, and specifically only in certain corners of this board, do people twist themselves into intellectual knots trying to convince others that one of the most basic defenses in all of basketball, one that the vast majority of teams both practice and at least occasionally play, is some kind of exotic, gimmicky scheme that only deep hoops savants can master. Truly incredible.
(In response to this post by GCHokie34)
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Vippie1
4mo
and frankly expecting a program like VT to ever play more than one defense, just shows a lack of rudimentary knowledge regarding the complex discipline of basketball .
Maybe the Duke's of the world with their Ivy League like credentials can earn this designation thus allowing for multi-defensive basketball, but let's stay in our lane and be realistic.
Link:
Hoops Savant
(In response to this post by Gobbler Guru)
4mo
Every zone is based on MTM principles, so if you suck at man you will suck at zone. I like mixing up defenses but if you can’t play MTM, there is no defense you can play.
(In response to this post by Gobbler Guru)
4mo
Take a wild guess how long they've been practicing it
(In response to this post by Gobbler Guru)
4mo
I guess you're opposed to adjustments in general then.
Team is having no success trying to score inside against bigger, more physical defenders? Sorry guys, you're not allowed to try outside shooting, you haven't mastered the inside game yet.
Team is having a rough shooting night and wants to focus more on the transition game and layups? Sorry guys, you haven't mastered the 3-pointer yet.
Team is getting killed off the bounce and wants to try packing the paint with a zone to stop it? Sorry guys, you haven't mastered man-to-man defense yet.
I can actually believe that you have a coaching background, because the hallmark of many coaches is a stubborn belief that their strategy and tactics are perfect, it's just that those darn players can't execute perfectly.
Keep digging that hole.
(In response to this post by GCHokie34)
4mo
Don't be dumb
(In response to this post by Gobbler Guru)
4mo
What he is like in real life. Effing DB
(In response to this post by GCHokie34)
4mo
(In response to this post by DDhokie31)
4mo
Edit: (Liked the post 20 min ago and no email)
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
** Edited by GCHokie34 at 3/28/2026, 10:32:42 PM
(In response to this post by DDhokie31)
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SHPHOKIE
4mo
(In response to this post by GCHokie34)
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Blueboy
4mo
add stupid to obnoxious.
(In response to this post by GCHokie34)
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HokieNL
4mo
(In response to this post by GCHokie34)
4mo
(In response to this post by 40ozDistrict)
4mo
Once VT does that they can certainly try it
The "lets just do what Duke does" crowd is...something
(In response to this post by 40ozDistrict)
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HokieNL
4mo
But, it would be nice to see something we could pull out of the hat once in a while, for maybe just a select few possessions, maybe enough to tip the scales in a close game. A few curve balls, here and there. A temporary stop gap measure.
Now, I have never coached the game, at any level, just to be clear.
But, as much as I like Mike Young, and think he is probably getting too much criticism right now, I still see some non-productive stubbornness from him on this issue, as well as his parallel attitude towards using Timeouts.
Fire away.
(In response to this post by GCHokie34)
4mo
They gave up more than 2 points per possession running it.
Its a terrible idea. Duke doing it doesnt mean VT can or should do it
(In response to this post by HokieNL)
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HokieNL
4mo
(In response to this post by GCHokie34)
4mo
More zone repetition means less man repetition. Which means you now run two crappy defenses...which some people seem to want, I guess
(In response to this post by HokieNL)
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HokieNL
4mo
Are you saying that we simply don't have the horses in quality and/or depth, to even run it somewhat successfully just on occasion? If so, that's quite a valid answer.
(In response to this post by GCHokie34)
4mo
Were you satisfied with how well they ran man to man?
Do you want them to practice it...less?
People get their panties in a wad on this very thread joking that zone cant be hard to teach or to learn...but here we are, 2 years in with Hammond, Schutt, Johnson and Lawal and after 2 years they still haven't mastered 1 defense.
Thinking that being worse at your main defense so you can run a gimmick defense more is not a sign of intelligence
(In response to this post by HokieNL)
4mo
either zone or M2M to man. But I can’t count the times that someone occasionally switching to zone has stymied Techs offense. Common sense will tell (those who process any ) that teams often have trouble scoring against a defense they rarely see or practice against. Maybe Hokies just haven’t “ mastered “ zone offense. But you carry on seeing as how you have obviously mastered the art of coach speak 101. What ever stokes that ego .
(In response to this post by GCHokie34)
4mo
Why not run a 4-1 zone? By your theory no one has seen it, so it must be lethal.
If the whole year the entire fan base laments about Virginia Tech's lack of defense, then practicing that defense less is never going to be the answer.
Hope this helps
(In response to this post by uber hokie)
4mo
FT shooter. Contrary to popular belief practice doesn’t not make perfect. IMHO 3 things are needed to be an elite defender - quickness, length and probably most important is grit or want to. Defense is not glamorous and doesn’t show up in tangible ways like most offensive stats. Very few players take as much pride in or put as much work into their defensive skills as they do their sport center Top 10 dunks or 3s. Nope defense is not sexy, it’s hard work all it does is win championships. And yes your post was helpful you should strive to be less condescending and start your post with IMHO and you would be much better received on this board. And isn’t a 1- 4 the same as box in 1? Which Hokies could have definitely used more that once this year
** Edited by uber hokie at 3/31/2026, 3:26:57 PM
(In response to this post by GCHokie34)
4mo
The top things needed to be a good TEAM defense is an understanding of where to be when the ball is in a certain place and an action is happening away from the ball.
Some of the best athletes to come through VT (Joe Bamisile) have been horrible defenders because they could not understand those concepts. You only get that understanding through repetition...which happens in...
...say it with me...
Practice
And no, a 4-1 zone would not be a box-AND-1...a box-and-1 is four players playing zone and 1 person playing man-to-man with either a full denial of that one person or chasing with help from one of those 4 zone defenders.
A 4-1 zone would be 5 players playing zone, 4 on the perimeter and one in the paint. It would be a terrible idea
(In response to this post by uber hokie)
4mo
years now. They just don’t want to give as much energy to D as they do to O. But under your assumption after hours and hours of PRACTICE and playing man to man in every they should have been far better at the end of the season than at the beginning? I did not see their ranking improved as season progressed. And the box in 1 remark was TIC so lighten up a little. There are actually some people on here that do have at least some basketball knowledge.
** Edited by uber hokie at 3/31/2026, 7:45:43 PM
(In response to this post by GCHokie34)
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HokieNL
4mo
I have not seen the Defensive stats, comparing us to all other teams this season, so I guess I would have to see that before commenting
(I am not saying those stats have not been posted, just that I do not remember seeing them, or if so, I forgot.)
Your point is well taken. There is only so much time that a team has to practice. Unlike with the FT issue, which players can spend time away from team practice getting better at, resources for practicing such must be allocated wisely.
Maybe in the other direction, when Boeheim was coaching Syracuse for, what, half a century, he ran Zone all the time, and did not play any Man to Man, and it would have been a waste of time, to do so?
There can be dumb assertions. Hopefully, there are no dumb questions.
(In response to this post by GCHokie34)
4mo
Honestly thats around where they should be for the program and what they do from an aggression standpoint defensively.
What wasnt good was finishing in the mid 60s offensively. If youre going to recruit for offensive superiority by being dynamic on that end, you cant finish above 40ish in the country depending on the year.
I think MY listened a little too much to the chorus of people early on who wished he recruited better athletes. I think he needs to take a hard right and double down on skill rather than athleticism. You can stay in the 60s and 70s defensively with non-athletes. But you cant be in the top 50 offensively with diminished skill.
All that to say, the defense wasnt as poor as people make it out to be, but it could absolutely get worse. They dont have spare time laying around they didn't use that could've been used on zone. It has to come from somewhere
(In response to this post by HokieNL)
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HokieNL
4mo
"You can stay in the 60s and 70s defensively with non-athletes. But you cant be in the top 50 offensively with diminished skill."
I had never heard it put like that before. Thanks. Things like this, give fans a rough guide, that is needed to have at least some rudimentary understanding.
Regarding, "You can stay in the 60s and 70s defensively with non-athletes." Would running Man or Zone be better or worse than the other, with non-athletes, or does that "60s and 70s" apply for both schemes equally?
(In response to this post by GCHokie34)
4mo
That he decided to run it as his main defense. I would be as adamant about not running a man to man defense when 99% of what you play is zone.
MY has spent his entire career recruiting players like Fletcher Magee and Hunter Cattoor and Storm Murphy who would thrive in his system offensively and he needed to devise a defensive philosophy that doesn't accentuate their weaknesses (i.e. dont put them on an island and need athleticism to be efficient)
So when you do things like change your defense, it only makes you less efficient. Because there are so many nuances to basketball and so many different things an opponent can do that you have to spend as much time as you possibly can mastering what you run the most. It is a lot easier to do that offensively than defensively.
Likewise, if you do things like change the makeup of your roster without making wholesale philosophy changes youre only going to be a watered down version of what you'd like to be
On top of that, if you change your roster AND you change your philosophy, then how much conviction do you have in what you were running in the first place? It is very rare for any coach (not just MY) to drastically change their philosophy and still be successful. It doesnt matter if the new strategy would make you more efficient if you run it perfectly...you dont believe in it as much, so you dont teach it at a level that will end with that kind of efficiency
Jim Boeheim ran zone for his entire career even after teams picked uo everything about it. In a vacuum should he have switched to man? Sure. But the context is hed be a crappy teacher of man to man basketball...he doesnt believe in it.
Hes not alone. It just doesnt work.
Shaka Smart changed what he believed when he took the Texas job. It didn't work out.
The instances where it has worked out off the top of my head are all places where you can recruit anyone at will and it matters a lot less what you run.
John Calipari when from a ball screen heavy offense to the Dribble Drive motion that became popular in the 2010s. It worked because he had John f***ing Wall and he was just telling him to get down hill. Calipari doesnt run that anymore and hes on to something else, and its because hes kind of a crappy coach who has had the best players everywhere hes been.
VT cannot do that. And I know that hurts the hearts of people who think the lack of success at VT is because there isnt enough big city thinking going on, but its a 100 year reality. When they become billionaires and decide to spend it on basketball then maybe VT can change their stars.
Iowa got where it got with a system coach who came from a D2 school and then a mid major and brought those mid majors with him because their market inefficiencies gave him an advantage.
If he ever tries to recruit athletes or go zone, it won't work very well. That's not something Iowa can do either, and they have Big Ten money
(In response to this post by HokieNL)
4mo
I get that it takes time and effort to incorporate other defensive looks. But when others - and not teams with Duke level talent or years of practice - manage to utilize it briefly but effectively, your explanations seem like sycophant excuses and rationalizations as much as reasons.
We heard so much about how this team was finally constructed with the pieces for a Mike Young system and those who still doubted Mike Young ability/willingness to adapt his system and approach were belittled for these takes. Now those who are doubting him for a essentially a similar but narrower unwillingness to adapt - in spite of other programs being able to do so - are being belittled again. At some point, outcomes and results mean more than credentials, bona fides and excuses.
(In response to this post by GCHokie34)
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HokieNL
4mo
Basically, if you don't have a roster chock full of the best players, which only a small amount of schools do, you will have at least some kind of at least relative deficiency - caused by that very fact, and not due to scheme, practice, etc.
You can do your very best, and still lose. Hard pill to swallow, but I guess that is what it comes down to.
Calipari has been a very successful coach. In your analysis, I believe you said, it is because he has always had great talent. Do great coaches make great players, or vice versa? Probably more of the latter, than we want to think. I am guessing that great players make coaches seem great, a lot more often, rather than the other way around.
We could have a separate discussion about what is it, that makes a great coach, a good coach, a bad coach, etc.
Proposed summation:
1. Get the best players you can. Recruit recruit recruit.
2. Realize that in the end, you have to work with what you have.
3. Either get something out of the player he doesn't think he has, or if he's that good, get out of his way, and just don't mess things up.
We can measure the *success* of a coach, pretty easily. What is more difficult to do, is evaluate how much of that success is due to what that coach does, as opposed to what that coach has, in terms of talent.
(In response to this post by GCHokie34)
4mo
1. Develop a philosophy that will utilize under-recruited players or specialists that minimize your weaknesses and play to your strengths
2. Recruit to that philosophy
It isnt enough to say recruit the best players you can, because who determines who is best? Is Wabissa Bede a good player who does some things at a high level? Yes of course he is...
Is Bede valuable in MYs system? Absolutely not.
Conversely, Hunter Cattoor was an ACCT MVP at VT. Would he have been even a starter at every ACC school? Probably not. His fit within the system was perfect.
Lots of lower ranked players who had flaws shine in MYs system. Mutts, Aluma, Cattoor, Alleyne, Murphy, Magee, Hammond, Pedulla, Basile, etc
(In response to this post by HokieNL)
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HokieNL
4mo
(In response to this post by GCHokie34)
4mo
(In response to this post by GCHokie34)
4mo
Otherwise lets go ahead and stfu
(In response to this post by 40ozDistrict)
4mo
Sorry for the delay been out having fun vs lurking around a message board, LOL.
(In response to this post by GCHokie34)
4mo
So I guess this falls in the category of stfu
(In response to this post by 40ozDistrict)
4mo
Temperament, temperament, temperament!!! Now I understand why you said in your daily life you are completely different than on this board. Otherwise you'd get knocked out with that rude potty mouth ;)
(In response to this post by GCHokie34)
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SHPHOKIE
4mo
(In response to this post by GCHokie34)
4mo
(In response to this post by fakehokiestolenvalor)
4mo
Maybe MY was watching this game and took notes!
(In response to this post by millmtnhokie)
4mo
But context isnt a strong suit here
(In response to this post by Midwestguy)
4mo
From an old Midwest BB player it takes great awareness when switching from man to various types of zones.
(In response to this post by GCHokie34)
4mo
Duke has to get MBB “right” It’s who they are… Vt has to get football right.. Vt can’t chop 30m from football to match Duke in bb
(In response to this post by Midwestguy)
4mo
What does that have to do with switching defenses? UM did it. Other schools do it.
CMD does it.
(In response to this post by VT757to276)
4mo
Like vt bb beating duke bb…it happens but…
(In response to this post by marcbvtgm)
4mo
Mine was Duke BB>>>VT BB AND Duke FB is at least the equal of VT FB over the last 15 yrs including an ACC Championship this past season.
(In response to this post by VT757to276)
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SC_Hokie
4mo
And they are the tallest in basketball….
They can do anything lmao
(In response to this post by Midwestguy)