When I think of the misguided FSU lawsuit, I cannot help thinking of SMU
I love this from the FSU complaint against the ACC:
The Big 12 has passed over for membership a long-time football college school located in its home state of Texas, Southern Methodist University ("SMU"), even though the Big 12 recently invited three other members from SMU's conference, the American Athletic Conference, which has never been considered a Power Five (soon to be Power Four) Conference.
The additions of Cal, Stanford, and SMU over strenuous objections from FLORIDA STATE and other ACC institutions. The ACC also tapped SMU, which has never been a member of a Power Five (soon to be Power Four) Conference and which the Big 12 has been passing on for years.
Simply stated, rather than improve its football media profile, the ACC chose to diminish it, along with undermining the ACC's "strength of schedule" potential.
SMU 3-0 and 6-1 overall
FSU 1-5 and 1-6 overall
Pardon me for smiling about that one.
** Edited by CobbCountyHokie at 10/21/2024, 10:38:25 AM
** Edited by CobbCountyHokie at 10/21/2024, 10:38:50 AM
92 Replies
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Truthahn
1y
IIRC, VT had this as well with ND for a while. We beat them the first time we played them, too.
** Edited by Truthahn at 10/22/2024, 11:51:03 AM
(In response to this post by CobbCountyHokie)
1y
content. FSU has a much larger national media draw than does SMU.
(In response to this post by CobbCountyHokie)
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lawhokie
1y
What is confusing about the absurdity of FSU arguing the impact of SMU on the ACC’s strength of schedule?
(In response to this post by 133193Hokie)
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2hhoop3
1y
just the sweet irony of how bad they are in reality. It could not happen to a more deserving bunch.
(In response to this post by lawhokie)
1y
What I am saying is that they went out of their way to remark how SMU was a bad choice for the league but SMU in year one is now potentially in line to play in the football championship game while their team has only won one game all season.
That to me is hilarious.
They did not smack down Stanford or Cal in their complaint.
** Edited by CobbCountyHokie at 10/22/2024, 10:05:34 AM
(In response to this post by 133193Hokie)
1y
Worthiness is based on how much money you can bring to the table. And that's a completely different discussion (which would take into account the discount at which they were offered membership, the likelihood they'll ever see a full share, etc.).
You making the same argument the WVU sycophants have made for years...competitive program, passionate fan base, rivalry, etc. make them a perfect fit for the ACC. And have they been deemed worthy by the powers that be? Nope.
And do you think if the ACC member schools could dump, say, Wake - even when they were competing for league titles in football - they wouldn't?
** Edited by marcbvtgm at 10/23/2024, 12:50:00 PM
(In response to this post by CobbCountyHokie)
The BigXII didn't need another school from Texas.
And SMU to BigXII would likely have been blocked by the Texas schools in the XII.
SMU also came to the ACC at a major discount.
These are inconvenient facts that get in the way of FSU's narrative.
(In response to this post by CobbCountyHokie)
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2hhoop3
1y
erroneous assertions and outright lies that have gotten in the way of the FSU narrative from the very first pathetic whining initiated by their idiot AD and propped up by the rest of the keystone cops aka FSU leadership. They should have paid more attention to fixing their own self inflicted wounds instead of blaming others.
(In response to this post by Maroon Baboon)
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Truthahn
1y
Actually, ACC fans should start making a fuss about that. We might as well try to hurt their brand on the way out.
(In response to this post by Windows NT)
1y
(In response to this post by Truthahn)
1y
They can be an annual top 25 team now that they are in a power conference. Way more potential than Houston Baylor or even TCU. FSU has no idea.
(In response to this post by CobbCountyHokie)
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SMU Pony
1y
I am really looking forward to the first SMU game in Blacksburg. I tell all of my Pony friends that VT has the #1 coolest entrance in college football and that it will be a can't-miss game
(In response to this post by Sunsetunderground)
E
EDGEMAN
1y
Night games seem to have better entrances.
(In response to this post by SMU Pony)
1y
force to be reconned with for as far as I can see. They chose Houston over SMU because of basketball, and with TCU the Dallas market is already part of the B12. That, and 4 schools in one state is enough. I think SMU would have been a better choice, even at a full revenue share.
I emphatically think that SMU should not have gotten the death penalty, and they belong in a P conference. Some in the ACC think they got rooked, and I'm telling you, SMU will be a really good long term addition to the ACC. I also think that CAL is a sleeping giant if the culture pendulum would swing back to football.
You guys need to let FSU go, keep Clemson, and look south to USF. If you get a contract that attracts current B12 teams, so be it, but that only makes SMU a better add.
** Edited by Big12 guy at 10/21/2024, 12:42:20 PM
(In response to this post by CobbCountyHokie)
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Truthahn
1y
Miami and SMU are poised to do very well from here out, IMO. They have the sweat spot combination of lots of very rich alumni, who are also crazy football fans.
** Edited by Truthahn at 10/22/2024, 12:08:21 PM
(In response to this post by Big12 guy)
1y
competitive teams. Stanford (example) has more money than God, but the culture doesn't put football in the forefront - yet. It will be easier for the rich privates to compete against schools like K-State if it comes down to money. The media money is only part of the equation, it is not the end all. Watch out for BYU to become a powerhouse in the B12.
(In response to this post by Truthahn)
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Truthahn
1y
They can threaten to sue.
I wonder if Liberty will sue the CFP if they are undefeated and don't get into the playoffs, citing religious discrimination.
IMO, the CFP is corrupt, if it does not include all undefeated teams. Liberty might be able to force that issue.
(In response to this post by Big12 guy)
1y
in the playoffs. As we all know, a school can not pick their conference (very few can), and they should not be penalized for that.
Personally, I don't care how much more a Texas makes than my school, but taking away the inability to compete appears to be monopolistic. if the kids are going to get paid, then there needs to be a salary cap of some sort - maybe on athletic departments, not the kids. Then, if a school deems it important enough, they can spend the money to be competitive.
(In response to this post by Truthahn)
1y
highest ranked conference champion.
(In response to this post by Truthahn)
1y
(In response to this post by VTHokie2000)
1y
both teams still have to play Notre Dame. Notre Dame might lose to 1 team, but I don't see the Fighting Irish lose to both teams this year. Also, the Army-Navy Game is played the week after Conference Championship Weekend and it doesn't count towards the playoff standings. This could be the first time the game hurts either team since they will be judged only on 12 games instead of 13 games.
(In response to this post by Big12 guy)
1y
goes undefeated should be in a 12 team playoff. No exceptions.
(In response to this post by VTHokie2000)
1y
this season. Besides Liberty, they are the only eligible candidates because the other potential G5 champions will have at least 1 loss this season.
(In response to this post by Big12 guy)
1y
be in full swing.
(In response to this post by Big12 guy)
1y
I contend the experiment will not work. While I understand what they are trying to do in football, the other sports are too varied and widespread for there to be a break away.
The P2 may form their own league, but it will be the rest of the country that will continue to play college ball.
(In response to this post by VTHokie2000)
1y
the impact that move will have on non-P2 football. Will non-P2 football receive the same coverage that it does now or will it shift to something similar to what cover of DI-FCS has experienced over the years? I guess there is even the possibility that the non-P2 and DI-FCS could recombine to how things were before 1978.
(In response to this post by Big12 guy)
1y
give coverage to football, they will migrate to where the money is. The money is clearly with the blue bloods, and aways have been. What i am watcheng, is if they give the other schools a fighting chance in football, money, coverage, or not.
(In response to this post by VTHokie2000)
1y
State game this past weekend on ESPN2 in the 7:30pm/8pm time slot. It probably helped that it was #1 vs. #2 in the FCS Poll, but I don't think that was the only reason ESPN decided to broadcast a FCS game on its family of networks.
(In response to this post by Big12 guy)
1y
unless they were undefeated, or vying for a conference championship. How many times over the decades have we seen bluebloods playing in a prime slot with nothing on the line? It's always been that way, so except for the dollar figures, and teams changing conferences, nothing has really changed.
(In response to this post by VTHokie2000)
1y
regardless what the P2s decide to do in the future. Will ESPN be able to fill up every slot on its family of networks (including SECN) with P2 games or will ESPN have to throw a few table scraps to the non-P2/FCS in order to have content?
** Edited by VTHokie2000 at 10/23/2024, 3:36:47 PM
(In response to this post by Big12 guy)
1y
During football through the basketball tournament, they have no problem filling all of the time slots.
I remember when Toledo was playing on Friday nights. At the time, it was relatively unprecedented. They couldn't get a Friday game now to save their lives.
You watch, there will be more Thursday and Friday games for the ACC and B12, and then they will put the Big 10 and SEC games on those days (already happening). Then the B12 and ACC will kick CUSA and the MAC out of Wednesday games. The conferences are getting too large, and the networks need to continue to feed the beast.
(In response to this post by VTHokie2000)
1y
10 years. Maybe even longer now that I think about it. Heck I remember when VT and WVU played a game on a Wednesday night.
(In response to this post by Big12 guy)
1y
game on Tuesday or Wednesday night.
(In response to this post by Big12 guy)
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Stech
1y
leave? Yes. That’s a terrible thing for the Conference.
Does FSU have some of the best if not the best in the ACC for TV ratings? Yes. That means likely considerably less money for the ACC.
Would FSU leaving weaken the ACC’s chances in some years of the ACC making the playoffs, and help another Conference? Yes. Again less money, and add less prime time exposure.
WADR, that would be a terrible business decision for the ACC, financially and prime time exposure wise, please help me to understand why the ACC would possibly let them go, unless they have to let them go?
(In response to this post by Big12 guy)
1y
to what Texas was to the 12. A cancer if you will.
Your conference would be just fine without them, and would get as many playoff entrants, as they would with them.
Screw them. IMHO, you would be better off without them.
(In response to this post by Stech)
1y
first time.
(In response to this post by Big12 guy)
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Stech
1y
on all this, so I get your point of view and appreciate your honesty on the response.
(In response to this post by Big12 guy)
1y
FSU knows that their main value has always been football and that for a solid 10-15 years before expansion, they had an easy path to winning the ACC every single year and thus being nationally relevant. The ACC didn't mind because they cared more about basketball. FSU is annoying people right now, but they have not been bad for the ACC. They are just saying out loud what other member schools are thinking (specifically the football focused schools).
Remember that this conference was slow to give up their old mindset and they let UNC (and other NC schools) control the decision making for a long time. That's why expansion was clunky basically every time from the multiple poachings of the Big East to the frankenstein monster we have today with Cal and Stanford and SMU.
(In response to this post by Big12 guy)
correct, which is why FSU is throwing a temper tantrum.
(In response to this post by HokieAl)
1y
Adding rivals Miami, BC, Pitt, and Syracuse and being the premier Olympic sports academic private friendly elite conference. If they would have joined we would be up there with the Big 10 and SEC. At this point I just want the end game to come so VT can move forward in whatever scenario we end up in.
(In response to this post by HokieAl)
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Truthahn
1y
Almost as dumb a move as expanding to please ND.
(In response to this post by Sunsetunderground)
1y
the ACC had been playing footsie with them all the way back to 1999 (if John Markon in the RTD could be believed). ACC should've taken VT, WVU and UM in 03. Matchups galore, all football powerhouses at the time.
Of course, the ACC has been run by individuals with signficant neurological impairments for a while...
(In response to this post by Truthahn)
1y
Was added. Yes Donna wanted them but the didn't join until a few years later.
(In response to this post by Truthahn)
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RJHokie
1y
to try get the Lamers to join. Of course that failed and BC was admitted the next year.
(In response to this post by Sunsetunderground)
1y
becomes a problem.
The only reason they joined the Big East and then the ACC for all other sports was because they were having difficulty getting into the NCAA tournament in hoops without a league affiliation. If the path to the CFP starts to become an issue for them, if SEC gets 4-5 teams in and the B1G gets 4 teams in and the only sure path to the playoff goes through a conference, then they will drop independence. Bet on it.
(In response to this post by Sunsetunderground)
1y
ND with 2 losses will nearly have a guaranteed spot. And I believe ND with 3 losses has some chance to make the playoffs.
(In response to this post by CobbCountyHokie)
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TerryD
1y
ND would have to be legally, structurally shut out completely from the playoffs for it to budge.
Just being harder to qualify would not move that needle.
(In response to this post by CobbCountyHokie)
1y
is like a guy dating a stripper or a prostitute.."she'll change for me, I just know it. I just have to be more supportive and, you know, there for her!"
(In response to this post by Sunsetunderground)
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TerryD
1y
1) ND doesn't consider those schools to be "rivals".
They were always just often played "opponents". ND would never surrender independence based upon those schools being in whatever conference.
That was an is a non-factor to ND.
ND had a budding rivalry with Miami in the late Eighties/early Nineties, but ND killed the series because it got too toxic after 1990.
Have you ever heard an ND fan proclaim any of those schools a rival? ND people believe that it only has one rival, USC.
The Big Ten tried to "lure" ND by adding USC. That didn't work out for them, either. They were mistaken as well.
2) ND always told the ACC that football would never be included.
There was and is no way that ND is ever going to give up football independence unless forced to, against its will, kicking and screaming and only as a last resort.
Its that important to ND.
I don't know why the ACC didn't understand that, given ND's history and its ten thousand statements that independence was fundamental to its football program.
** Edited by TerryD at 10/22/2024, 8:03:10 AM
(In response to this post by Sunsetunderground)
1y
But they would still typically play BC Pitt Stanford and Miami most years anyway and join the only conference that has many like minded institutions. If the ACC fails they will be a member of the Big 10 eventually which appears to be what they have been fighting for so long. So why not join the perfect conference for them? Maintaining independence at this point is kind of like cutting of your nose to save your face. Yes you will remain independent but at what cost? You will be Nebraska in the Big 10.
(In response to this post by TerryD)
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TerryD
1y
Conference membership.
ND wants to stay independent forever.
Full stop.
So, joining a conference to avoid joining a conference is a non-starter.
Always has been.
(In response to this post by Sunsetunderground)
1y
if they are shut out of the national championship playoff, then and only then will they join a conference.
heck, knowing ND, they just could start their own conference if the ACC falters, and they need a conference to get into the playoffs.
(In response to this post by Sunsetunderground)
1y
(In response to this post by TerryD)
1y
reason, they wouldn't have added them. I'm sure they thought it would help in the end, and there's a good chance it will, but that's not why they added USC.
** Edited by reestuart at 10/22/2024, 9:08:22 AM
(In response to this post by TerryD)
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TerryD
1y
Both put the full court press on ND throughout the summer of 2022 to get ND to move.
They both made noises about the potential end of the ND/USC series if ND didn't join.
No sale. ND didn't budge.
(In response to this post by reestuart)
1y
get involved at some point. Then it will get interesting.
(In response to this post by TerryD)
1y
That is what NBC currently has with their ND contract. If ND joins the Big10, then their games go into a pool that their games can be chosen by FOX, CBS, NBC, or Big10 Network. FOX has the largest number of "first choices" and will probably claim as many as they can while CBS will do the same and the Big10 Network getting their 1 game per season leaving NBC with 3-5 games, much fewer than what they have now.
Contrary to Twitter and YouTube pundits wishful thinking, NBC is in no way going to force ND into the Big 10.
(In response to this post by reestuart)
1y
Fox is still going to be Ohio State heavy since they get the ratings. ND-Big Ten matchups on NBC will also get better ratings. The ND/NBC game hasn't outdrawn a Big Ten NBC game all year. NBC would be chomping at the bit to upgrade there.
** Edited by reestuart at 10/23/2024, 8:08:39 AM
** Edited by reestuart at 10/23/2024, 8:14:01 AM
(In response to this post by mrcaniac)
1y
9 B1G games plus 1 OOC would be 10 slots in the B1G that ND would have. As part of the schools contract with the Big10 Network is that each school appears on the Big10 Network twice a season, and at least one is a conference game. That leaves 8 spots for Fox/FS1, CBS, and NBC/Peacock. Fox has 1st pick of 3 weekends, CBS 2 weekends, and NBC 2 weekends. Fox usually chooses the OSU-Mich game weekend as their 1st pick, but they would probably use the next 2 for ND games against most of the B1G schools, as would CBS with their choices. At most, NBC would probably get 4-5 ND games per season in the B1G.
As an independent, NBC is guaranteed 7-8 games per season.
(In response to this post by reestuart)
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TerryD
1y
It did not and will not.
NBC signed a huge five year deal with ND instead of that message board and YouTube nonsense.
Hell, ND's new AD was the former head of NBC Sports, a Domer and a huge proponent of football independence.
(In response to this post by reestuart)
1y
negotiations. These affiliations with the conferences are not forever, and while ND is currently under contract, those games will be for bid in the next contract. This includes the BIG and SEC (all conferences). Money will talk, and there will be an evaluation of what all of those games are worth to the networks.
(In response to this post by mrcaniac)
1y
an ND "rivals" list.
Maybe Miami and BC, but I recognize that ND fan may not see it that way.
(In response to this post by TerryD)
1y
national championships over the years. The USC/ND games meant something, because they had national championship implications over the decades.
A rivalry is defined by geography usually, because local bragging rights were all that was at stake. Purdue/Indiana comes to mind.
The big (national) rivalries are big, because they usually had a conference championship on the line, and national championship implications. OSU/Michigan OU/Nebraska comes to mind.
(In response to this post by Pylons)
1y
should have added Navy (TIC) given the Navy-Notre Dame history. Navy's OOC schedule would have been Air Force, Army, and 1 more spot (reserved for Notre Dame) which would have likely placed restrictions on when the Navy-Notre Dame game could take place.
(In response to this post by Big12 guy)
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TerryD
1y
...ND would quit playing Navy in that scenario.
Adding Navy would be a complete and total non-factor to get ND to join the Big Ten.
Other people seem to not believe or understand that football independence is like religion to ND.
It would have to be a "no other possible choice" issue for ND to run up the white flag on independence.
(In response to this post by VTHokie2000)
1y
heat Notre Dame would get for choosing to go down that path.
(In response to this post by TerryD)
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TerryD
1y
And if the Big Ten was using Navy to extort ND into joining, that kinda breaks the deal.
(In response to this post by VTHokie2000)
1y
shouldn't have publicly made an open invitation to Navy.
"As a result, Notre Dame made a promise to Navy as a thank you for helping keep the university afloat.
"As long as Navy wants to be on Notre Dame's schedule, they'll be on Notre Dame's schedule" - Rev. Theodore Hesburgh, former Notre Dame President"
https://www.si.com/college/notredame/football/why-notre-d...
"During World War II, Notre Dame suffered severe financial challenges. Being an all-male institution at the time, there were many students who enlisted and enrollment plummeted. To help Notre Dame, the US Navy made the campus a training center for their candidates and paid enough to use the facilities and help keep the University of Notre Dame afloat.
As a result of Navy’s partnership, Notre Dame has extended an open invitation for Navy to play football and consider it an annual repayment on a debt of honor. There is much mutual respect for each team, as is witnessed when each team stands at attention during the playing of the other’s fight song after the game."
https://junipertours.com/blog/the-history-of-the-notre-da...
"If for no other reason, Notre Dame owes it to Navy to keep the rivalry going. When Notre Dame faced financial difficulties during World War II, the Navy opted to use the university as a training ground for its V-12 program. The money the Navy paid for that usage kept the university from going under, so Notre Dame feel it’s forever in its debt."
https://fightingirishwire.usatoday.com/lists/history-of-n...
(In response to this post by TerryD)
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TerryD
1y
IF the Big Ten was using the Navy game to extort ND into the conference, you would expect ND to just meekly fold its hand ?
That would not happen. The Navy series would be jettisoned in that scenario. That was my post.
(In response to this post by VTHokie2000)
1y
may not be able to confirm or refute what the Big Ten is doing because the Big Ten will not publicly disclose their motivation. The conference is too clever to fall into that PR trap. All Notre Dame will know for sure is that Navy will have an open date for specific weeks because the Army game and conference games will be set in stone. Navy may have some flexibility to move the Air Force game to another week, but even that may not be gauranteed because Air Force's conference games and Army game may already be set in stone.
(In response to this post by TerryD)
1y
football market. I say that because there have been multiple articles and I think 1 or 2 books written on what Navy did for Notre Dame. Some of the source material was written by people affiliated with Notre Dame. Heck I have even heard it talked about during the game.
(In response to this post by Big12 guy)
1y
keep the game as long as it makes sense and as long as they are independent. That may be forever, but as we see, things change.
(In response to this post by VTHokie2000)
1y
any article talking about the "rivalry,"
"The money the Navy paid for that usage kept the university from going under, so Notre Dame feel it’s forever in its debt."
that is why I am curious to know if Notre Dame would feel any heat (and how much) if it suddenly changed its position. After all, "forever" is a pretty long time. Just ask The Reverend Robert A. Dowd. :-)
Link:
Click Here
(In response to this post by Big12 guy)
1y
be in a conference, they will either join the ACC if she stays together, or form their own conference.
(In response to this post by VTHokie2000)
1y
because Notre Dame is on the record saying it would play Navy as long as Navy wants to play them because of what Navy did for Notre Dame during WWII. Given that the Big Ten knows this piece of information, the conference could use Navy as a pawn to make things more difficult for Notre Dame by forcing Notre Dame to potentially give up a game against a marquee name to make room for the Navy game. Basically, the Big Ten could arrange the conference schedule in such a way so that the Navy-Notre Dame could only be played early in the season when Notre Dame is most likely to schedule a non-ACC marquee opponent. Instead of a marquee opponent, Notre Dame could be forced to schedule a game against a Nevada or Northern Illinois.
(In response to this post by Big12 guy)
1y
promise though. If Notre Dame publicly said it was a qualified promise, then I would like to see a source that supports that position.
(In response to this post by TerryD)
1y
is ND will play Navy as long as the Middies want as payback for Navy's help to ND football during WWII. If true, that speaks well of ND institutionally.
(In response to this post by Big12 guy)
1y
(In response to this post by mancunian)
1y
lacking conference affiliation and having a way more national than regional following.
I grew up a big Penn State fan and ND-PSU sure felt like a rivalry then (80's), but it obviously didn't continue once PSU went B1G.
(In response to this post by Big12 guy)
1y
at the ACC before USCLA and OUT pulled the plug on their respective conferences, and the mess we are in was formed. FSU filing the lawsuit changed my mind on them, and all of the drama that has followed. The conference having an uncertain future is not good for any school in the conference, but it seems to be the world we live in currently. Screw FSU.
I used to think the Oregon fans were the creme de la creme of the whiners, but then FSU fans appeared. I hope they, Texas, USC, and OSU never win another championship. Add in all of the SEC schools, and you can guess I'm a bit bitter of what has happened to the game I fell in love with as a kid.
** Edited by Big12 guy at 10/22/2024, 2:30:24 PM
(In response to this post by HokieAl)