FSU, Clemson, NCSU, & VT to B12 is the latest thing I see being tossed
against the Twitter (X?) wall. Like all the other scenarios flying around, probably nothing to it.
Link:
here
60 Replies
2y
choice !
(In response to this post by 501)
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Stech
2y
and the games would be way more interesting to watch. College Football is just entertainment, it has nothing to do with what my degree from Virginia Tech means to me, or the people I hire.
(In response to this post by FLKEYSHOKIE)
If you lived in Dallas (like I do) you would
never see them play again on tv with that plan.
(In response to this post by Stech)
2y
And would happily abandon those local rivalries for more $$ and more relevance.
(In response to this post by Stech)
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Stech
2y
football was built on close regional rivalries, and the only two conferences that have most of that left are SEC and SBC.
Players want to play in front of fans that care more, and the closer geographical rivalries make the fans care more. Give me that over this so spread out games that there is hardly an away fan at the game. It sure seems to be working for the SEC and I bet it works for the SBC too. I would rather have that than the sports money, but maybe that is just me.
** Edited by Stech at 7/19/2024, 12:06:52 PM
(In response to this post by HokieNoVA)
2y
to see play out is if that difference is short-term or long-term. As the gap between the P2s and the rest of the DI schools continues to widen, how long will the networks continue to funnel money into conferences like the ACC and Big XII? That isn't to say the networks don't make money of their content. How does their RoR compare to the RoR for the P2s? If the networks get a substantial better RoR on their investment with the P2s, then at some point I would think the networks would start to consider re-allocating some of their investment in the ACC and Big XII to the P2s. After all business is business. I do think at some point the financial gap between the ACC/Big XII and the rest of the DI conferences will be smaller than the gap between the ACC/Big XII and the P2s. It may already be heading in that direction as we speak.
(In response to this post by HokiesACC2004)
2y
(In response to this post by Stech)
2y
(In response to this post by Maroon Baboon)
2y
To play - don’t see why we would scurry off to b12 and let uva go along w UNC to p2, unless b12 can match or get close to p2 money w these additions
(In response to this post by 501)
2y
these big 12 things are alot of rumors intended to stir a divide in the Commonwealth. (and actually NC)
In big 12 territory, they dont get working together, its always never be collaborative... just doesnt work here in the Mid Atlantic area.
(In response to this post by Hokie12thman)
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Stech
2y
(In response to this post by 501)
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2hhoop3
2y
and their carnival barker commissioner scares anyone on their own. They have, however, proven to be a willing foot soldier for more formidable partners that wish to stay in the shadows until they can no longer remain there.
(In response to this post by Stech)
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Stech
2y
would get out in a second if the offer was there. The PAC 12 without Texas and Oklahoma is a G5 football Conference, yet he got some good PAC 12 teams to hit panic button, let’s hope he doesn’t do the same with the ACC, if he hasn’t already done so.
(In response to this post by 2hhoop3)
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2hhoop3
2y
that scare that easily it is on them. Like I said, the situations differ in the PAC 12 and ACC. The PAC 12 contracts were already expiring and the two LA schools were gone. While the remaining term for the ACC MIGHT not run full length it still exists at present. I do not have a high level of anxiety as I believe things will work out for a number of reasons.
(In response to this post by Stech)
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Stech
2y
** Edited by Stech at 7/18/2024, 9:20:23 PM
(In response to this post by 2hhoop3)
2y
bigger plan or conspiracy. I have always disagreed with this. If however, the rumors are true, and they end up giving financial considerations to attract current ACC members, I will change my position, and tip my hat to you.
Up to this point, I think the B12 has just been lucky in timing and geography. let's see how this plays out before we come to conclusions however, because statements like that are as bad as the B12 You Tube hacks.
(In response to this post by 2hhoop3)
2y
Save the Big East and recent PAC-12 explosion, the Big 12 has been the most raided conference.
Frankly, I think its amazing that the Big 12 is still in the P4/5 discussion and is stumping as the #3 conference. ACC has only lost Maryland. Big 12 has lost Colorado, Nebraska, Missouri, Texas A&M, Texas and Oklahoma. That's quite a list, yet they are still maintaining relevance. Granted, they have Colorado back and have added some respectable programs over the years, but I wouldn't fault the Big 12 for going out and making waves trying to backfill.
If blame needs to be assigned, it is saved for the original poachers. Like it or not, ACC is one of them regarding the Big East.
(In response to this post by Big12 guy)
2y
conference to play in. There just were not many options for them at the time. Before that, the ACC was irrelevant in football, save a couple of runs by Clemson in the 80's. If Penn state had been the anchor, and Paterno was raising the issue for years before they went to the Big 10, we would be having a different discussion.
(In response to this post by hokieluver)
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2hhoop3
2y
has nothing to do with my statement. My statement was their history and my belief about what should really scare someone looking at the situation. Moreover, just because you believe they were previously lucky with respect to timing and geography does not really address my contention. You yourself have admitted surprise at the numbers and, honestly, attributing it to luck of timing and geography ignores a lot of "convenient coincidences."
(In response to this post by Big12 guy)
2y
(In response to this post by 2hhoop3)
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2hhoop3
2y
that was unlikely to ever happen. One more thing we disagree on is that my statements/beliefs are anywhere near as bad as the trash put out by the Big 12 YouTube Hacks.
(In response to this post by Big12 guy)
2y
(In response to this post by 2hhoop3)
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VTCALS72
2y
Now ESPN who as a part of their conspiracy is using the Big 12, that is another matter. I do think there is some luck on where the Big 12 is as they only had 2 schools anybody wanted so there was not going to be as much disruption to the conference as a whole but a bigger part is the role they are playing or being manipulated to play based on all of big Media's plan.
(In response to this post by Big12 guy)
2y
(In response to this post by 501)
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2hhoop3
2y
if truly involved, the Big 12 is once again a willing dupe for scraps to provide cover for the B1G/FOX and SEC/ESPN to cherry pick a viable conference without looking like the bully AND to use the fear of having their current conference home dissolve under their feet to motivate some less desirable(but still desirable) targets to take a lower payout initially. This time is different than the PAC 12 because the ACC and ESPN are making money, even if it is less than they might like, and despite the rancor, there are existing agreements with terms to run as opposed to expiring in the near term. The next few weeks will be interesting, at least in terms of setting a short term(next 18-24 months) course but, there are things in play(House settlement progress, ongoing CFP negotiations, etc.) that might impact the ongoing realignment discussions.
(In response to this post by hokie77)
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obguthr
2y
Otherwise, pass.
(In response to this post by 501)
2y
appears that the P2 is not going to expand enough to let everyone in. The mythical super conference may or may not happen at some point in the future, but for now, it's how much money can you get, and is it enough to compete in the medium and long term?
I'd be surprised if there is a shred of truth to these rumors, and while it would bolster the B12, and possibly change the money in regards to the media contract and guaranteed playoff money, I just do not see how this is good for college football.
The Mag 7 has the value, but need more Mag 7 type schools to form a new conference, and I don't think that is in the cards for a host of reasons.
The ACC could stay together, and they were given a gift with the guaranteed playoff money - yet they want to distribute that money evenly, including the 3 new additions.
If the B12 has the capacity to satisfy the money requirements of such a move, and they currently do not, where would they get the kind of money to satisfy FSU and Clemson? We have discussed private equity, but none of us on this board have shown how the PE firm makes their return on their investment. Naming rights and other revenue streams could easily be replicated by any conference, so I don't see the advantage there either.
So, set aside the rumors and click bait, and talk the money part, because that will ultimately be the determining factor.
Would the media contract with the addition of the top ACC schools, and the addition of the 4 corners move the needle enough to make this type of merger feasible? Would the look in of the playoff money give the new conference a share closer to the P2?
Looking at the bigger picture, where does the money come from? A lateral money move doesn't make any sense, but a move that could give the Mag 7 $20M more a year? In my humble opinion, it would take that for it to make sense for FSU or any top ACC program to consider such a move.
$20M a year more is $80M a year for 4 schools, or $400M more for a 20 school conference. That is a lot of jack, and I don't currently see how that happens unless there are uneven distributions. Currently, in the B12, there are no whispers of uneven distributions, and PE money is a temporary infusion of cash.
Do you think such a conference would command a media deal that pays closer to the $50M per school it would take to move the needle enough to be competitive? I certainly don't know, but I wouldn't dismiss a merger like this out of hand.
(In response to this post by obguthr)
2y
If a PE firm(s) were to invest in a conference, the value would likely be tied to some other investment. Perhaps they are also a partner in that new Disney-Fox-WB streaming service. Or some other venture that would stand to drastically increase profits from more college football realignment.
The PE firm(s) will definitely have an angle for their money and I doubt it is as basic as taking a % of yearly revenue from the B12.
(In response to this post by Big12 guy)
2y
currently have. It could be a game changer and a positive, but it could also be an unmitigated disaster.
(In response to this post by HokieAl)
2y
would still have the same revenue disparity that it has today - i.e. it would be a short term advantage
(In response to this post by Big12 guy)
2y
without PE money, at least for now. How many years will it take to determine whether or not a PE "investment" pays off or not? With how things are going, we will be in a much different situation 5 to 10 years from now.
Title9 just might bring some anti trust legislation in regards to player compensation, and I don't think the P2 would take the risk until all of that plays out.
The B12 is taking risks, because, when you have nothing, you have nothing to lose. The P2 does not have to take risks.
(In response to this post by 133193Hokie)
2y
Honestly, I just don’t see a scenario where the ACC collapses. The P2 will take at most 2 schools. Period. The other schools have nowhere to go. Why pay an exit fee to change conferences for the same money, less attractive rivalries and higher travel costs?
The ACC is not the PAC12. It will not destroy itself. Since there are no forces compelling enough to destroy it from the outside, it is not going anywhere.
That said, there is the opportunity to rationalize membership or enhance payouts to the best schools to keep them in the boat and potentially attract new schools.
** Edited by VT ChemE 1986 at 7/18/2024, 9:47:15 AM
(In response to this post by Big12 guy)
2y
playoff money at the look in. That money does not go to the B12, as I really don't see a legitimate scenario where FSU and Clemson land in the B12.
A third conference, whatever the make up, will have to find a way to get enough revenue to compete. Without the guaranteed playoff money that Clemson and FSU carry with them, I don't see how a third conference gets there - and that may be the key here.
The Big 10 and SEC are already in the catbirds seat when it comes to money. FSU is worth a full share of either P2, and Clemson has a good argument as well - but after that, it falls off pretty far, especially with the guaranteed playoff money.
So the question becomes whether or not the Big 10 and SEC need a competitive conference to maintain their advantage, or if they break away. A break away isn't a good business model in my humble opinion, and the B12 and ACC are at an impasse.
I understand why you guys want mag 7 centric conference, and you have a valid argument, but could such a conference generate the kind of money it would take to peel off the top B12 schools?
keep in mind that VT in a conference with WVU, Cincy, Pitt, and Louisville sounds pretty awesome to me. Add in NCSU and Miami, and you got a winner as far as I'm concerned. I just don't see where the money comes from for it to make sense.
(In response to this post by VT ChemE 1986)
2y
should merge. Create a national mid-tier conference, with East and West divisions, and pay-outs based upon performance. I think the only reason why this is not getting more attention is because half the conference administrative staff would lose their jobs. These folks care a lot more about their jobs than the long-term health of their member schools.
** Edited by VT ChemE 1986 at 7/18/2024, 10:14:11 AM
(In response to this post by Big12 guy)
2y
don't want to be associated with other schools that they perceive as not as good. This is part of the reason why we have Cal and Stanford in the ACC and why they didn't want VT or WVU in the past.
(In response to this post by VT ChemE 1986)
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2hhoop3
2y
they took Louisville, they accepted and defended UNC's antics, to name just two contradictions.
(In response to this post by HokieAl)
2y
I had to look back at old articles to see why the ACC grabbed Louisville. My take is basically it was partly panic after losing Maryland, partly football because L'ville had one solid year when they were invited, and definitely basketball as L'ville was very strong at that point.
But even the old articles were saying this was odd and asking why did the ACC pick them.
(In response to this post by 2hhoop3)
2y
your school to attain more research dollars - which is a LOT more than football dollar. The PAC, Big 10, Ivey league, and ACC are some of the conferences that come to mind. have an athletic conference with like minded institutions. Every conference is guilty as charged, except maybe Conference USA.
(In response to this post by 2hhoop3)
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WBGV
2y
into the B1G was rejected. Their pursuit of membership into the Big 12 was rejected. The pursuit of membership into the ACC required them to take 1/3 of the conference payout as other members, fly their student athletes from the West Coast to the East Coast and back for almost all away conference games, and sign a GOR that could end only a few years after joining or even worse lock them into a horrible conference deal until 2036. These were clearly desperate schools forced to make horrible choices. They are also two of the top academic University in the entire world. IMO, athletic conference affiliation was always about the money and everything else carried little to no weight. This round of conference realignment exposed what had likely always been true.
(In response to this post by HokieAl)
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EDGEMAN
2y
...it's that our conferences aren't getting paid to compete. (That includes the B12.)
(In response to this post by Big12 guy)
E
EDGEMAN
2y
...and Slim just left town.
(In response to this post by obguthr)
2y
present themselves in the distant future and the teams involved know that !
(In response to this post by 501)
Another tweet from Swaim suggesting B12 may not want FSU…..
As FSU is being viewed as too entitled.
(In response to this post by VTChip)
2y
This all looks like a big misdirection so that we forget just how ugly the playoff snub was. A P5 champion who was undefeated got left out in favor of two 1 loss teams that have P2 favoritism.
Behind closed doors, all the other conferences know exactly why FSU is doing this and they understand. I don't think their reputation is tarnished at all among the college athletics groups (except the ACC). And we all know the fans don't matter anymore. So this is just another talking point.
(In response to this post by CrystalCoveHokie)
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ombandit
2y
(In response to this post by VTChip)
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VTCALS72
2y
I may have to "take the L" as Greg Flugar says but that makes absolutely no sense. If TV wants a 3rd conference, which I do not believe they do, it makes no sense to put it anywhere but the population dense east.
I do believe the TV folks have had a use for the Big 12 in all of this and maybe it is not long term but ESPN is certainly using them and all the while some of them think the Big 12 will own Texas and Oklahoma even with Texas, OU and TAMU in the SEC.
Now, that has nothing to do with good football and good fan support which the Big 12 currently has but IMHO if good football, good attendance and good tailgating had anything to do with it, neither UVA nor several others would be mentioned as much as they are.
There is a final blueprint that big media is working from and it may be more of what they see as long range than what is happening today.
(In response to this post by VTChip)
2y
Duke, BC, Wake, Syracuse, SMU, Stanford should be worried the most about what happens with the ACC.
Every single one of them is going to have a hard time finding a home that they are happy with IF the ACC were to break up. But more than likely they would keep the ACC name and pull in other schools that they want IF any of the big public schools left for a different conference.
I'm sure the B12 would love this scenario, but it would take a TON of guaranteed money to make anyone consider it.
(In response to this post by VTChip)
2y
this sounds like nonsense. Also, I still can't see FSU running into the arms of UCF. If those 6 schools were willing to leave the ACC for the BigXII, why not just leave and recruit 6+ schools of their choosing to join them in a new league?
Clemson, FSU, L'ville, VT, Pitt, NCSU, then make calls. aim high, but there would be plenty of options to flesh out a strong media property. hell, some of the remaining ACC schools might choose to join them. perhaps disgruntled members of the P2 (aTm? PSU?), and certainly some large BigXII brands.
It's all nonsense, so just adding my own seasoning to it.
(In response to this post by VTChip)
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2hhoop3
2y
for April 1, the one day of the year he has any real relevance.
(In response to this post by VTChip)