them, poor replacements for Bobby Bowden and Frank Beamer, John Skipper’s ego would rather get a good deal, than take care of his alma mater, and like the old Big East, basketball schools are king, when football rules college sports. In other words, a perfect storm (hurricane to be exact, because they had a lot to do with everything I listed ) hit us, and never let the football schools rule.

And of that's all that it was about, it has worked I suppose. I never really liked the move. If it was to allow for a feeling out period in hopes of ND joining down the road, then maybe it was worth it. But it looks like we took a chance, and now have pretty much lost. When they were putting that deal together, I didn't like it because I thought it was bad for the ACC brand. Between the ND sweetheart deal and Maryland bolting for the B1G, the writing has been on the wall ever since IMO.

year not withstanding). I would agree that the NC schools seemed to be more basketball-centric, and the addition of BC, Syracuse and frankly Louisville did nothing to improve the football pedigree - they just dilute the conference even more. Just look at the schools the B1G and SEC invite now - and the ACC tries to invite a school that states over and over they are committed to football independence and takes bowl game revenue away - genius.

I'll never understand this line of thinking. If you kick Louisville, Cuse, and BC out of the conference, Pitt is following them to the B12. SMH You are trying to imagine a scenario that puts the ACC in the same category of the BIG and SEC, or a clear third in revenue. That ship has left the harbor. Those B12 schools would have taken an ACC invite 2 years ago, hands down. The B12 had 5 states and 40.2M ++ population. After Texas and OU leave, they will have 8 States, with 76.5M population. Which state will they add next with the 14'th school?

And to a lesser extent, UL (KY) and BC (MA). The least valuable property in the ACC is Wake. If we lose them, we still have the rest of NC.

want to give up football, and go to the Big east for instance, and being a founding member, they aren't going anywhere, and they shouldn't go anywhere. I completely understand any fan, AD, or President wanting those reported 80M media contracts, but those institutions that are in a position to do just that, will turn their back on everyone in the ACC, not just Wake. It could very well be that the BIG is overpaid, and the networks could have buyers remorse when the next round of negotiations come up. There can only be one conference champion a year, and I understand there can be multiple invites to the expanded playoffs, but again, there will be only ONE champion a year. The brands will dilute each other. When was the last time Nebraska brought national attention? The national attention will be the playoffs, no matter who is in them, and I scream from the rooftop, there will be a LOT of blue bloods watching a TCU, or a K-State, or even a Utah or Oregon State competing on the national stage. The B12 hat 2 NY6 games this year, plus a national championship game. They had multiple units in the NCAA tournament, and it could be argues that both Oklahoma and Texas barely contributed to that money pile.

and arguably #3. This from a conference that until 1979 had 57% of its schools in one state (NC) and zero schools that were anywhere near the average enrollments of the Big 10 schools. So yeah the original sin of the ACC is they couldn't project in the 1950s what collegiate sports would be about in the 2020s. So the problem is still #1 on your list- but any fair minded analysis would have to give the ACC a ton of credit for surviving. Yes there have been missteps- BC was a clear mistake. The biggest one IMO was the NC provincialism that prevented them from enticing an independent Penn St (and a few select gettable NE schools) into the conference when they could. ** Edited by Vippie1 at 7/30/2023, 5:23:49 PM

to a Power 5. The SEC and the Big 10 have distanced themselves from the other three from the former P5. And the PAC is in danger of falling far behind the ACC and Big 12. Seems to me that references to the Power 5 is more of a wish than a reality. That's why everyone is wanting out of the ACC and into the Power 2.

NC St have always been a drag on the ACC tv deals. Any fall Saturday, check out the atmospheres of the noon games at UVa, Duke, WF, Pitt, BC, Cuse, GT, UM, etc vs the B1G and SEC games going on at the same time. No comparison on the enthusiasm in the stadium. And this bleeds into the telecast. I do not think that this can be fixed

The big ten has three of the top nine, Michigan, Ohio state and Penn state. The only psuedo- ACC program I. The top nine is Notre dame The big ten was prime time college football 40 years ago before espn exit or the ACC added Florida state. The ACC has done a lot to catch up. But we live in a different universe to the big ten and sec

the breadwinners would be in the B1G/SEC much sooner. The Pac ended up letting USC/UCLA walk because they had too few years left on the deal. Same with B12 and UT/OU.

1. Culturally ACC never really like for expansion, they liked the original seven/eight. South Carolina was always the rougue and when they left, no one cared. They were ok with GT, culturally like the ACC, then FSU was a no brainer to get into florida. 2. The expansion with Miami and VT and finally BC. really shacked the country club. (they wanted Miami to buy the football brand (and Miami demanded cuse and BC). Well ACC didnt do a good job on counting the votes especially UVA. well and guess what VT came in first, before it was allowed to take miami and finally BC. And ACC culture the tobacco road element spent alot of time reworking the conference and divisions to preserve as much they can the old ACC and the new. (atlantic and coastal)... (they didn't see VT early dominating the Coastal and FSU and Clemson fading .. it was planed every year Miami and FSU. all fat and happy. 3. clemson and FSU was starting to rattle alot about increasing TV share. and Swofford worked it. Guess what simply the objective numbers with ESPN showed ACC didnt have the football ratings or programs to 1) raise rights and generate an ACC network. So Swofford worked it and FSU, particularly demanded a network. ESPN said the conference needed more TV markets and brands. Therefore, they picked Cuse and Pitt alone with the drug deal with ND. Also, ACC had to find a way to ensure the branded teams dont leave. Therefore, the idea was the iron clad GOR. At the team ACC rights were great. FSU got what it wanted so bad a network. and they signed the GOR. However, with that money most of the conference didn't re-invest the money into football, but other supports and supplement operational expenses. (that's the president's directive). Therefore acc football flatlined while product got worse. (VT did it too, with weaver management, Beamer and Stegar retirement and boom. all the football brands flatlined .. except Clemson... It not public or private I would say, it was more these schools are really academic schools, and they embrace a balance. They inherently didnt want a 'football factory'// however, they liked the publicity for being in the national stage. However, by locking in the GOR, this forced the members to stay as a conference until 2035. Big 10 takes a different model than the SEC, their philosophy is they can have a great athletic dept and be a great academic institution.. its not one or the others. However, they are big land grant universities who have large enrollments that can cover the costs. (except Northwestern)... VT is the big 10 model, probably NC state and clemson...

is considered by many to be a visionary because he read the bylaws and saw the value of taking advantage of the bylaw that allows a conference to host a conference championship game in football. If the ACC had a commissioner like that than one who preferred to continue with the country club status quo, then imagine where the ACC could be as a football conference if it had decided to add Penn State, Pitt, WVU, and VT in the mid-80s after the Supreme Court ruled the NCAA was in violation of antitrust laws with how it control the broadcasting of collegiate football games. I picked the mid-80s because people still valued regional conferences and that version of the ACC would have still been a regional conference. Atlantic/Coastal (protected cross-division games) Pitt - Penn St WVU - UMD VT - UVA Wake - Duke NC State - UNC Clemson - GT Also, this version of the ACC would have done a pretty good job of protecting a good number of the rivalries that existed back then and it would have still left the door open for the ACC to expand into FL in the early 90s (if so desired) by adding FSU and Miami. Plus, the ACC could have been the first conference to hold a conference championship game in football instead of the SEC. Heck even if the SEC had still been the first conference, the ACC could have decided to be the next conference to host one instead of waiting until the early 2000s to pull the trigger. If the ACC had waited to the 90s to expand, then it is likely Penn State would have still joined the Big Ten in 1990. However, the ACC could have given Penn State's spot to Syracuse to pair up with Pitt. Depending on how many schools the ACC decided to add, it is possible the Big East may have decided to not create the Big East Football Conference. ** Edited by VTHokie2000 at 7/31/2023, 2:57:27 AM

The NFL effect. From 2001-08, NFL regular season games averaged 14.4 million viewers. Viewership abruptly rose to 16.7 million in 2009 and stayed within the 16-17 million range through 2016. From 2017 to now it has been bouncing within a range of 14-17 million. But here is the interesting part. From 2001-2010 the NFL revenue doubled ($4b to $8b). And then from 2011-2021 the NFL revenue doubled again ($8b to $17b). All that with basically flat viewership of games. The value is coming from all the other stuff that keeps fans interested and engaged throughout the year. And that’s what brings us back to the ACC. My guess is that around the 2010-2012 timeframe, the media companies wanted to copy the NFL success and get more money from college football. But the key to that is large fan bases who are highly engaged and a bit obsessive. This led to the very clear media focus on hyping up the SEC and BIG above all others since those two conferences best checked the boxes for the NFL model. And then it became a self fulfilling prophecy, helped along by the ACC producing a decade of bad football (I’m generalizing with that). So the ACC didn’t get passed because of being dumb (maybe a little bit), they just got put aside and ignored by the media since it didn’t fit the strategy.

That FSU, Miami, and VT all tanked at the same time, leaving Clemson as the only consistently contending program for a decade. Nobody else consistently wins OOC games. They schedule road games at G5 schools, which makes them more like G5s than P5s. Very few athletic departments emphasized football and focused on non revenue sports instead. They acted like G5s and were content to cash the paychecks that the football schools were earning. Miami, FSU, VT, NCSU, and UNC need to step up. Beat SEC and big10 teams on the field. Do that and the money will follow.

has greatly underperformed what was expected as a result of expansion. If FSU Miami and VT all returned to what they were about 20 years ago, and Clemson maintained what they have been doing the ACC would be just fine. We would have 4 top 15 programs. That is the ACC's best hope. There are no good expansion options. ** Edited by wwhokie1 at 7/30/2023, 8:31:41 PM

Florida State and Miami both fell off big time after 2005. Clemson was already down, not a consistent top 10 program at the time. Virginia Tech took advantage of this and dominated the conference in the late 2000s, but the problem for the conference as a whole is that Virginia Tech was never able to be a serious contender for the national championship. Whether it's a good measure or not, the fact is the perception of conference strength is almost entirely tied to producing title winners, even if it's just 1 program winning all the titles. Really by the time Virginia Tech was falling off, Florida State was (briefly) rising, followed by Clemson. Even though Clemson hasn't been a Bad Team in the last 2 years, the fact that they haven't been a title contender, and neither has anyone else in the conference, is the main source of all the weak conference perception angst.

If that happens thing swill change

My view is that the money will not come to the ACC no matter what we do on the field. The P2 investment is too far along for the media to pony up more money for the ACC, especially since ESPN has us locked in for another 13 years. If the top ACC programs start consistently producing on the field then that just helps secure their spot in the P2. I don't think it changes much for the ACC at all because ESPN can do to ACC the same as what happened with the PAC and be stingy with numbers because they are negotiating from a position of power.

I agree. assume that there is more rights except current situation. Find more donors, get corporate endorsements, naming rights, or even borrow from their endowment. When it gets tough, you see how really passionate these programs are. They got to think like a business person.

bad decisions and bad football pretty much sums it up IMO.

Nike and we all can see all the extra income Tech missed out on over the years. And like you posted, bad football by Tech, Miami and FSU just rubbed more salt into the wound. It's good to see NC State and Pitt improving though. Wake IMHO has overachieved and Duke seems to be on the right track but we need the large state universities to be consistent top 25 programs. UNC needs to be a top 10 program this season with all their talent but they probably won't.

When He got in, he had only 1 week to review, and he didnt like it, but VT would be left with NO deal with other companies (and Vt would have to pay for all uniforms and other stuff the NIKE pays for free). Being new, he wasnt willing to take that risk... Also Frank felt it was just fine.. (Whit wasnt going as the new AD augue with the legend. My take, (to demonstrate his institutional fortitude), make a short statement, this is a crappy contract and for the best of VT, I going to take the heat, and not sign it, and go back on the market and risk not having it ready by the following year.

year in-year out with the resources they have (wealthy alum, name recognition, fertile recruiting base, Nike, etc) - but they aren't, and I cannot understand it.

They don’t love football like the fans of those more successful schools do. The fans are a big part of creating that football culture. VT fans are great. VT fans have supported the team even when the on field results have not been there. Other schools are impressed with how passionate the VT fans are. UNC is a wine and cheese crowd like UVA. VT is beer and turkey legs.

really been the killers. Clemson has obviously been good but they are slipping, but when Saban retires and IF Bama lures Dabo away, Clemson could go back to being the way they were pre-Dabo - good but not a contender.

Moving to unequal distribution is inevitable though

As far as viewership tiers, FSU, Clemson lead the way in Tier 1. We have one team in the second tier (Da U) with a transient fanbase that can’t be counted on to watch them because they’ve been a non factor for almost 20 years in the ACC. VT, UNC, Louisville and NC State are next in a solid third tier than most conferences would be fine having. The problem is the ACC needs these schools to be the ACC’s first or second tier and they aren’t built for that. And then the rest of the ACC is ratings garbage. Competitive, butts in the stands, eyes on the tube, whatever the metric, over half the ACC is an absolute zero in major college football. ** Edited by hokieZ71 at 7/30/2023, 12:53:42 PM

TV products. ** Edited by NokieHokie at 7/30/2023, 12:47:48 PM

in or from a Big Ten state watches. SEC has a big alumni base, and they dominate the states they are in. Their teams play second fiddle to nobody except maybe in SC, which is t a huge state to begin with. The ACC has none of that. Small alumni base, and the schools don’t dominate the states they’re in.

We have more than UVA and UNC...

They've consistently underperformed in the NCAA tournament and the CFP. OSU won the CFP in 2014, but I don't think they have advanced to the title game since then.

It's remarkable how they claim to be a premier football conference - they really aren't. Every other current P5 conference has won at least or more football NCs in the past 25 years. They have the biggest alumni base and possibly the biggest fan base - hasn't translated to championships.