Well the ACC legal drama continued this week. The smoke was thick in Chapel
Hill and not from unc graduation fireworks!
The fireworks were early in the week. When at unc BOT meeting, several board members including the chair complained about athletic budget deficit. They called for an audit of athletic department and complained about lack of financial transparency from AD Bubba Cunningham. They summoned him to come back from Amelia Island to discuss these financial concerns in BOT's closed session today (Thursday 16th).
Two board members including the chair were quoted in media Tuesday calling for UNC to leave ACC for a higher revenue conference! Presumably the BOT closed session with AD Cunningham would include discussions of this as well as budget deficit details.
In the interim, a lawyer and dad of a unc student, filed a complaint in court citing NC public meetings law, which does not permit budget discussions to occur in closed sessions. Local judge agreed and issued injunction telling BOT they could not discuss athletic budgets or conference affiliation issues in closed session!
So, during the routine open session today dealing with mundane consent items and introduction of new student member of the board and committee reports there sat AD Bubba Cunningham. Never even asked him a question!
Chair opened meeting with carefully worded statement that board would not discuss athletic budget in closed session and never had planned to? Went on to explain NC law prohibited it and indicated what law allows to be discussed in closed session. These include personnel matters and attorney client privileged discussions. Clearly legal council wrote his statement or at minimum reviewed advised.
So presumably they could have talked about AD'S performance or legal council's advice on ACC GOR? Appears they did not as athletics were not on closed session agenda.
Bubba Cunningham left meeting before they went into closed session! Media narrative today is "UNC Board backs down." Interim UNC Chancellor made public statement supporting AD Cunningham today as well.
Couple of side notes that add to this drama: UNC Interim Chancellor is financial guy, a Republican, and a Duke graduate. Also, two members of UNC system board of governors were present today at open session, chair acknowledged their presence. Do not think they were around for BOT meeting earlier in the week. The System BOG Has veto power over conference affiliation decisions of member NC schools BOTs. They would also have to approve any lawsuit by UNC against ACC and likely also hiring of outside legal counsel related to it.
What does it all mean? Not sure but today there is alot more talk of a "reconstructed ACC" vice UNC leaving the ACC.
** Edited by vtox1 at 5/16/2024, 8:55:06 PM
** Edited by vtox1 at 5/16/2024, 9:06:20 PM
** Edited by vtox1 at 5/16/2024, 9:11:04 PM
65 Replies
2y
"Do you not know, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed?" Seems apt here.
Come to think of it, that quote may be from Jerry Reed in Smokey and the Bandit.
(In response to this post by vtox1)
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saret
2y
If you can't do it in public, it's suspicious.
(In response to this post by vtox1)
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VTCALS72
2y
"nobody wants (or needs to know) how the sausage is made."
(In response to this post by saret)
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saret
2y
That may be a description of the status quo, but everyone should want and need to know. Things done in secret and behind closed doors does not engender trust or loyalty. And, when called to do things in the public view, you get what happened in Chapel Hill, the cockroaches start scrambling to avoid exposing their own venality. Now that I think about it. cockroaches is an apt analogy.
(In response to this post by VTCALS72)
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VTCALS72
2y
but they don't.. People, whether voters or football teams do not want to know what they give up to get their priority. That is why the spending bills are "sausage" rather than straight steak.
(In response to this post by saret)
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saret
2y
It's those "movers and shakers" who want us to be blissfully ignorant, and keep sending in money. It's the "cockroaches" you describe, not the donors and fans.
(In response to this post by VTCALS72)
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VTCALS72
2y
(In response to this post by saret)
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saret
2y
want blissful ignorance, because they want to keep the money flowing, into their pockets from the pockets of the blissfully ignorant.
(In response to this post by VTCALS72)
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VTCALS72
2y
the academic scandal go away, have told the school that the ACC performance, or lack thereof is without legal merit and the GOR is pretty airtight. Heck it would not surprise me if the lawyers didn't say they actually wrote the GOR and it is ironclad.
(In response to this post by vtox1)
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2hhoop3
2y
that likely had a hand in drafting the GOR initially? That is the irony in all this. If you look at ACC HQ staff and the outside legal teams advising you will likely find connections to EVERY ACC program that has a law school, including FSU. The idea these schools did not know or have a very good idea of what was in the various agreements stretches the bounds of credulity.
(In response to this post by VTCALS72)
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EDGEMAN
2y
...Fox, CBS, etc., but primarily ESPN. There is no need to "reconstruct" the conference if ESPN is not only on board, but driving the change.
(In response to this post by vtox1)
2y
The fan bases in the ACC as a whole will never be as large or as rabid as the SEC or BIG for football. It’s a losing battle to try and exist the same way that they do. The ACC’s best option to stay relevant for media money is to be different and interesting.
Just a few random ideas:
- ditch the champ game
- replace with a wild card game between regular season #2 and #3 to try and help get another team into playoff (this also gives your top team extra rest before playoffs)
- push a villain narrative. Parity sucks and is boring. We need to have someone for fans to hate.
- incentivize schools to score more points. Scoring gets viewers. Scoring gets attention to offensive players in national media. Scoring is interesting.
** Edited by HokieAl at 5/17/2024, 11:47:50 AM
(In response to this post by EDGEMAN)
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Truthahn
2y
Those away FSU games are going to be off the hook.
(In response to this post by HokieAl)
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Marooned
2y
you’re proposing, what you’ve listed has pretty much well been done by the “defense optional” B12.where the winner was usually the team with the ball at the end. For a while the ACC’s bad boy was Miami and the B12’s was UT. It remains to be seen if Miami will ever reclaim that swagger. Utah seems bent on being the new “too cool for the pool” B12 member. Jury is definitely out on that.
I don’t see the wildcard play in catching on with the ACC, which is notorious for conventional thinking. However, it has enough arrogant presumptiveness to it that it should get some style points from Paul Finebaum at least.
(In response to this post by HokieAl)
2y
contracts. Assume a series of departures and suggest what would be an appropriate payout in each case.
(In response to this post by EDGEMAN)
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saret
2y
(In response to this post by 33laszlo99)
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VTCALS72
2y
And that each and every school will have a dollar amount that the contract payout will drop if/when they leave. That will be the ACC's stated cost to the school to leave. I don't think the GOR will stretch that far but that will be the opening salvo for buying back their media rights.
I have said before, if FSU is adding say 5 mil in value to every team then they should be held to the GOR and be made to repay an amount equal to their value for the term of the GOR to all the remaining teams that signed the GOR when FSU did. So that would be14 remaining teams, including ND, @ 5 mil =70 mil er year for the remaining term of the GOR.
When the ACC takes the gloves off in court, the actual $$$ loss departing teams are costing the conference will be a factor.
(In response to this post by 33laszlo99)
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EDGEMAN
2y
...fan support, we'll not get a deal that significantly closes the gap to the P2. If the ACC loses it's large public schools, it will be another (current) Big East conference.
(In response to this post by 33laszlo99)
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VTCALS72
2y
And IMHO at the mid level, Wake, BC nor Cuse is as bad as some are suggesting. Remember, BC and Wake has been to more ACC championship games than Miami has. And Cuse has as good a football history as UNC.
The ACC cannot be fairly judged based on the 2 conferences the big media chose long ago.
(In response to this post by EDGEMAN)
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EDGEMAN
2y
...games, filling visitor's stadiums with your fans, or eyes to TVs, what kind of value do you provide to television contracts? The answer is very little.
Remember when ACC fans started complaining that VT fans were overrunning their stadiums? That should have provided a clue we needed to request membership in the SEC (or B1X).
(In response to this post by VTCALS72)
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VTCALS72
2y
VT is that school that may fill their stadium but doesn't get enough national viewers. So apply that rather than the full stadium thing. By THE yardstick most are using, the number of TV viewers is way more important than having 50-65K screaming fans. They don't care why fans will pause and watch UNC or Miami with their aluminum clad stadiums, they just know that those 2 will garner way more viewers. It doesn't matter that VT has as good a die hard base of fans, they want the way larger number of casual fans as the audience they can sell stuff to.
Now I agree that the same group of "nationals" don't really have a clue about anyone who does not have a NC in either football or at this point BB because they really don't need any ACC team (save ND) for football at this point.
And that has nothing to do with whether the ACC has done a good, average or less than average job.
(In response to this post by EDGEMAN)
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EDGEMAN
2y
But we definitely didn't help ourselves during the Fu years either...
(In response to this post by VTCALS72)
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VTCALS72
2y
ACC at all. But in all fairness, the ACC pretty well had to provide access to Wake/BC games as a part of the contracts too.
(In response to this post by EDGEMAN)
2y
Might not hurt for the ACC to pitch themselves to them. Afterall, cable is losing thousands of customers per day.
(In response to this post by EDGEMAN)
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VTCALS72
2y
Has not pitched the idea and how VT can provide to them? If the ACC has not already reached out to them. then VT most likely has.
(In response to this post by HokieR)
2y
There's a relationship but they're not BFFs or anything... Amazon isn't going to go out of it's way to help VT or ACC sports... Amazon is a business not a charity.
(In response to this post by VTCALS72)
2y
WB seems far more reactionary than visionary.
(In response to this post by VTCALS72)
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VTCALS72
2y
The "visionaries" see a 30-40 team carrier to college football and to heck with everybody else. I don't see much room has existed for "visionaries" below the P2.
For most schools, the "visionary" tag really means unrealistic dreamers who do not understand how stacked the deck is by big media, Big and SEC. There really is no good point for either the XII or the ACC to engage in a "Charge of the Light Brigade."
(In response to this post by HokieR)
2y
My point is simple. WB is surely a smart man. He does a lot of things well. He also doesn't seem to care or have a clue about a lot of things. So do I think it has occurred to him that Amazon is obviously intent on increasing their sports content? That streaming is the future? That there might be an opportunity for media rights for the ACC? I have no idea. But he has proven he can be clueless about things. So I can't agree that he has likely already considered it. He doesn't appear to be very innovative.
(In response to this post by VTCALS72)
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saret
2y
long range planning are two concepts not applicable to VT's athletic department.
(In response to this post by VTCALS72)
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VTCALS72
2y
personally involved in. But that also sets bias from being too close to some parts of the whole. Think Whit Babcock with the opinion of him on this Board, then contrast that to his hires.
And, being proactive does not have to be in public.
(In response to this post by saret)
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saret
2y
proactive, when, historically, the VT AthDept (even under JW) was never proactive or did long range planning. Much like cheating is the Carolina Way, sitting on their hands and doing nothing is the VT Way. Most of the time, the VT AthDept doesn't think beyond lunch.
(In response to this post by VTCALS72)
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VTCALS72
2y
with your "doesn't think beyond lunch."
(In response to this post by saret)
2y
(In response to this post by VTCALS72)
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saret
2y
way of deflecting.
(In response to this post by NokieHokie)
2y
(In response to this post by saret)
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EDGEMAN
2y
I love that the ACC is airing one football game a week on the CW! It might not pay what CBS or Fox pays, but it's nationwide cable and OTA coverage. The more eyes on ACC sports, the better!
(In response to this post by HokieR)
2y
(In response to this post by EDGEMAN)
2y
dictate anything like has been reported. Seems BOG agrees. UNC will not be allowed to do anything unless State has an equal landing spot IMO
(In response to this post by vtox1)
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WarHog38
2y
I have read at least three times in specific articles by supposed Insiders that the SEC refused Oklahoma in 2012, specifically because Oklahoma insisted that Oklahoma State also got an SEC invite. I think the SEC then went to Virginia Tech from what I have also read several times. I have also heard West Virginia approached the SEC during this time. Mike Slive refused West Virginia due to poor academics is what I heard. Anyway the SEC winded up with Missouri due to all that, with the northern half of Missouri being about as southern as Illinois.
I think UNC or the BOG demanding NC State is just going to cause the SEC to move on as Oklahoma managed years ago. Everybody knows UNC is no football power, they haven't been in all of my many years. Oklahoma was/is a football blue blood. Does the SEC want a basketball power that bad? I doubt it. I doubt the SEC ever takes Kansas. I seriously doubt the B1G will take NC State. This is going to put UNC & NC State in the Big 12.
I would wait to see what happens to Bubba Cunningham to judge the events of today too precisely. There was an interested student's father, obviously an attorney. That got a same day judge's ruling that hushed any private discussions about conference affiliation. The Two BOG members there probably were ACC loyalist that were there to make sure the court's ruling was obeyed. This all looks like a handful of resistance. One Trustee, Cunningham and 2 BOG members. I guess you could also add a judge to that resistance. I guess he is auditioning for the ACC. The ACC needs all the judge's favorable rulings they can get.
(In response to this post by HboroughHokie)
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VTCALS72
2y
would have to clearly be the better option over a "post exit" ACC. I know many XII podcast out there think the Big XII has weathered the storm and are on tract to be the 3rd "power" conference but that assumes that everything in the conference is stable and that somehow they are worth so much more than a new ACC.
If UNC/NCSU do not go, and Vt/UVA do not go to the P2 then that remains the one really big population area the P2 does not control. There is the potential for more $$$ there than in the Big 12. In fact, there is probably a greater population in the VA/NC area than is in the Iowa/Kansas/Oklahoma and west Texas core of the Big 12 combined. I discount the east and central Texas as the Big XIIs teams rank no better than 3rd for that area. After Texas and TAMU, there is not that much left. Heck, they are only #2 in Iowa and Oklahoma as well.
There is a reason so much money is behind a revived PAC, and I still think that big media "harbored" the 4 corners schools and Stanford/Cal in the Big 12 and ACC respectively to bring back to the "new" PAC. If that happens, then the Big 12 loses their biggest population bases in AZ, Utah and Colorado. Who really doesn't think the ACC anchored by the VA/NC 4 can't beat that?
(In response to this post by WarHog38)
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WarHog38
2y
Do not really think the ACC remnants, be it Virginia & North Carolina schools are shooting to be like the PAC now is. If all those schools you mention are still in the ACC after the SEC & B1G finish expansion. Those schools will be worth exactly what Big Media wishes to give them. Those schools had better hope this doesn't play out exactly like the PAC.
I think all this athlete revenue sharing could possibly restrict this future expansion opposite pushing it forward. All because of the immense added expenses in the billions it looks like it is going to cost. Who knows the future? However getting in a P2 may then be the only option to play major college football.
(In response to this post by VTCALS72)
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VTCALS72
2y
will all be just what the Big media wants. All 3 just alike except the Big 12 has one advantage and one disadvantage. The advantage, they are way more in a P2 desert so they will be the only game around. That is also their disadvantage as they don't have big population centers in the eastern, central or western time zones.
So a three conference, 36 team division seems like what the Big Media has in store.
(In response to this post by WarHog38)
2y
about 2/3's of the B12 that will be in the P3 if there isn't a cap put on players salaries, or if the judgement is too erroneous.
There is click bait (3 so far), that have put the media value at $20M per team if UNC joins FSU and Clemson, and bolts. Another is saying that the contract would be cut in 1/2.
I won't give the links, as this board is a bit weary of the pod casters - and I don't pretend to know where this will land - but if it evolves to pay for play, it will be extremely difficult for any team not in the P2 to compete in football.
(In response to this post by WarHog38)
2y
really dont care if the SEC or BIG come calling if it means both schools are not included
(In response to this post by WarHog38)
2y
with transplants from other schools and fan bases. DC for instance, is a very diverse group of people, and it doesn't immediately transfer to better ratings for the Virginia schools. The same can be said for Charlotte.
The fan bases in Oklahoma, Texas, Kansas, and Iowa are some of the most passionate loyal fan bases you can find. Any bowl game, anywhere in the country, at any level, has a sea of purple if K-State is involved. Honestly, those people have nothing else to support. K-State has never been mentioned as an expansion candidate for any P conference, including the PAC and ACC. They have also had sustained success on the football field. None of that mattered for them in any conference realignment scenario.
The "privates" in the B12 fill up their stadiums in the B12 as well, and no one that I know of is clamoring to get rid of that "dead weight". it's just different out here in flyover country in regards to college football. VT may be stuck in the wrong part of the country - population in the state or not.
(In response to this post by HboroughHokie)
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Stech
2y
Both of our applications and admissions are through the roof. Sorry I think your premise about our state growth is way off!!
** Edited by Stech at 5/17/2024, 10:37:21 AM
(In response to this post by Big12 guy)
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VTCALS72
2y
That is good on the various Big 12 podcast and message boards but won't sell in the East.
** Edited by VTCALS72 at 5/17/2024, 12:52:36 PM
(In response to this post by Stech)
2y
is the rest of the country, and realignment is a national thing - effects us all.
It needs to sell in Peoria.
(In response to this post by VTCALS72)
2y
good ratings in the DC area.
(In response to this post by Stech)
2y
This is rhe last untapped market and its growing fast - va got the majority of tne dc market as well as richmond va beach market and unc system control the charlotte rdu market . So if the others want this growth market they are going to have to take it with properties which are joined at the hip. Not poach.
(In response to this post by Big12 guy)
2y
not changing anytime soon
(In response to this post by Big12 guy)
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2hhoop3
2y
and today was the adults(UNC money guys and System BOG) telling the kids(UNC BOT) to sit down and shut up or they would be sent to their rooms without their basketball tickets.
(In response to this post by HboroughHokie)
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2hhoop3
2y
Monday and beyond. The UNC BOT exhibited in spectacular fashion for all to see their weakness, inexperience and arrogance. Meekins tried to help the kids out but, they were not smart enough to take the hint. There will likely be more consequences yet to come.
(In response to this post by RJHokie)
2y
cheating. They seem to weasel out of everything.
(In response to this post by 2hhoop3)
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2hhoop3
2y
about the court or legal consequences, although there might be some. This pure infighting amongst Tarholes and other North Carolina(the state not the school) folks. The BOT group wrote checks when attacking Cunningham and UNC's place in the conference that they had neither the power or authority to cash. They received a very public comeuppance on Thursday but, they will be on a very short leash with potentially other restitution(not necessarily cash) that may come due yet.
(In response to this post by IB4TECH)
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RJHokie
2y
Might be a really interesting circus event on the horizon.
(In response to this post by 2hhoop3)
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saret
2y
(In response to this post by RJHokie)
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2hhoop3
2y
if you can find a clip of the BOT Chair trying to walk things back yesterday it is probably pretty entertaining if the news reports were accurate. Monday in court will be interesting as well.
(In response to this post by saret)
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saret
2y
All these self-righteous hypocrites jockeying to screw each other. Public incidents like this just puts a face to the reality of this whole situation.
(In response to this post by 2hhoop3)