2nd cup of coffee musings
Money, money and more money. That is at the root of what IMHO is destroying college sports today, I hate it but IIWII.
So not talking about the Bamas or Buckeyes, the Teasips or Wolverines, but the next level down of money, why are we not there? Asking myself the first comment I would make is the value of VT athletics giving in my general giving budget. I would say to the people who think VT should raise 10s of millions more, yes I could give more. But college sports, especially in this NIL climate is not worth it to me. Personally asking me to contribute to paying players is not going to get a return for the asking. That is just me but I am not alone. I have no idea how many have taken that stand but I am not alone.
I have oft thought about it and have to wonder, SMU raised the amount of money VT needed to have raised to play the game at a high level right now. Colorado did the same. Why doesn't VT and dozens of other schools do the same?
Taking SMU (oil) and Colrado (other mining) some sort of natural resource changes the geography. Ours is coal and it just doesn't not produce the size of an economy now.
Next is something like the Research Triangle. What would VT giving look like it that had been put in Roanoke or Blacksburg? tons of folks flock to North Carolina so without real connections, they pick a local sports team to go along with their alma mater. If you took the residence of North Carolina who were born there, my guess is UNC may not be the #1 fan favorite and certainly does not carry the majority against the combination of Duke, Wake, ECU, NCSU and Appy fan bases. But the people who come drawing significant salaries pick the "name". They just do. I have oft said if VT would move their athletics to a NOVA campus, we would get a lot more donations, we just would.
And finally, generational wealth from which to donate. Again just a guess but my guess is that UNC and UVA have way more "trust fund" alums and thereby way more "discretionary" funds from which to donate larger sums. Simply put way more old money.
Some of these could be totally wrong but there are also probably many more examples that those schools in the P2 and are being considered for admission are mining a much larger seam of coal than the VT peer schools.
** Edited by VTCALS72 at 3/12/2025, 11:17:39 AM
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CoolJCPA
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I am with your thoughts and truly have quit caring if VT goes 8-4, 9-3, 6-6, or 5-7. Yeah, it's more fun if they win, but there is still something about a cool Blacksburg morning in the fall with a tail gate and all our friends and children who are current VT students coming to hang out with you for the day. I think as I have gotten older, I take more joy in that than the actual game. Yeah, I miss the days of being in college in Blacksburg watching the Saturday morning football show on CNN or whatever it was well before game day in 1989. But the landscape has changed so much, I have learned to enjoy that which I can control and just enjoy the game for what it is, a game.
(In response to this post by VTCALS72)
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Stech
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(In response to this post by CoolJCPA)
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Stech
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harder to motivate us for the money, time, driving etc. for a pre-game tailgate party (especially with a noon kickoff). There are lots of alternatives closer by, that said, I love a Virginia Tech tailgate party before the game. However, many of us want to enjoy the game and we used to have about 10 celebrations per year for 8 straight years after the game. I still don't believe as average as ACC football has been, that we can't get to 10 wins with the right coach some seasons. Here is to hoping we don't lower our standards and reach for excellence again!
(In response to this post by CoolJCPA)
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OOC has WVU every year you see interest. Maryland could have been if ACC had a clue and our and MD people.
(In response to this post by Stech)
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No matter how hard VT fundraises, its never going to be able to financially compete with the top 10-15 programs. The wealth and numbers required for that simply don't exist in the fanbase. We're solidly an upper-middle class fanbase.
So what exactly is the point of busting our asses to raise more $$? Is it really worth doubling my donation so VT can win 8 games instead of 6? And that problem just gets exponentially bigger for the wealthy alums. Are they seriously going to give an extra $10 million to VT so they can win 8 games instead of 6?
(In response to this post by VTCALS72)
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Stech
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guys like Kenny Dillingham the Head Coach at Arizona State that was picked last in the Big 12.
Almost nobody thinks things can be done, until someone does it. We don't need to drop our standards, we need to raise them at the AD level, and possibly at the Head Football Coach level, but he's got this year to produce, or cut him lose.
Whit needs to go now!!
(In response to this post by HokieNoVA)
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That said be smart in all thinking. Find a coach that sees the pitfalls but can overcome. That being said I will allow hopefully the next AD make that choice. Go from there.
** Edited by MrFantastic! at 3/12/2025, 1:40:08 PM
(In response to this post by HokieNoVA)
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you get what you pay for THe answer is reduce expenses to mediocrity or increase revenues (from non traditional VT methods), and increase revenues to meet current bench mark for cost of being a sucessful program. and Mediocrity and lamenting about the past, distroys a program.
(In response to this post by MrFantastic!)
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At this point, I don't ascribe to the amount of donation as some ratio to wins as you have to invest and then not bail in the "bear" seasons and certainly not to think we should always be in a bull market for wins.
As for me, I do not believe that busting our @$$es to raise enough more money will really move the needle toward P2 competitiveness. Maybe in 2031 when we really see what the future is but not now.
The question then will be the same, will VT donors put out enough $$$ to win at the little p2 (or 3) level.
To me the die has been set and unless the SEC suddenly reaches down to pull us up, we are destined for that little p level of college football and it is not because we failed, it will be because there has and is an anointing and we simply have not been anointed to be in the Capital P 2.
(In response to this post by HokieNoVA)
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1. more agressive management and rights management, that brings in alot more than forlks think... Look at the lack of closthing and goods in the big market cities in NOVA Richmond and Hampton Roads. All UVA, where was this 5 years ago???
2. Rights naming. Get a NATIONAL branding company to hawk naming of Cassell and lane, (and not give it to an undervalued company who is local,, the best price)... that could give you anothe 40-50 million,.
3 Real estate development of land, for private investment to make the athetlic complex ad more entertainment complex.
Just thowing things out. (f you dont have the donors, then you have to think out of the box. Lament only gets you depressed. and WHit is very depressing
(In response to this post by VTCALS72)
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hokieZ71
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Their revenue and support structure have to be fairly similar to VT.
(In response to this post by HokieNoVA)
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we are doing fairly well if we are at a revenue support structure similar to our more successful peers.
(In response to this post by hokieZ71)
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ISU lower end and Nebraska on a higher end. I actually believe we potentially is between those two. Our recruiting grounds is prob more athletic.
(In response to this post by VTCALS72)
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I know nobody wants to hear it, but it's practically pointless to even field a D1 FBS football team if you're not going to compete for championships. And, if you're not in the P2, or Notre Dame, then you're not competing for championships. So, who cares? Why give to NIL? Why spend 1000s on tickets, parking, and travel? So you can cheer the team on to 7 wins instead of 6? Who cares?
It's why I've never understood the G5, and why they don't raise more hell, or break away and do their own thing. Now, the ACC is the G5. It's difficult to even care, honestly. Oh, great, they won the ACC? Cool, now they can go get embarrassed by a P2 team that fields all 4 and 5 stars and has three times the budget. And, the championship is the only thing that matters, because everything else has been devalued to the extent that it's now pointless. Win your conference? Who cares. Win a non-CFP bowl game with all your back ups? Who cares. Win a CFP game, then lose? Who cares. And, at the end of the year, half or more of your players, whether they're not good enough or really good, are leaving for elsewhere. The only way to care if you're a VT fan now is to root for VT to beat whatever Vegas sets the win total at. That's the only thing VT is "winning" now.
All of the above is why the current paradigm cannot last. It's untenable. The schools and conferences have let the TV people come in and screw everything up, for no reason. They also insist on continuing this laughable charade that these players are amateurs, just trying to get a college degree, which is why they continue to get reamed in court at every opportunity.
(In response to this post by HokieNoVA)
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Research dollars.
The ability of the university president to invite academic donors to sit in a suite and watch a division one FBS game is enormous.
Ask those G5 schools why, and it is the bigger picture that is important, not the ability to win a national championship.
Toledo held the record for consecutive wins, and is currently 2nd all time. Never even a whisper of those ranked teams competing for a national championship. Never will be either.
Why then do they chase FBS football? Athletics has always been a money loser for them.
It's because the University gets it on the back end, in other ways
Same can be said for K-State, or VT. No one outside the State would even know they existed if it wasn't for Athletics.
(In response to this post by Baltimore_Hokie)
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How you can post "research dollars" in an athletics conference thread is beyond me.
It is not "enormous" to be able to put a potential donor in a suite...for some donors, it's really nice and beneficial...for others, they probably don't give a crap...people on a sports message board forget there's a whole world out there that doesn't really care about sports.
Universities do not "get it on the back end in other ways" from athletics. They've painted themselves into corners with athletics. No one wants to be the first to blink and say "this is stupid and not really beneficial for an academic institution."
And student recruitment? Meh. Again, skewed view from an athletics website. There are sooooooo many kids who couldn't care less about sports at their college.
(In response to this post by Big12 guy)
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donors that are wined and dined at your games by the president and staff.
Do you honestly think that all grants are awarded through an email? Personal relationships go a long way in establishing report and the presidents box is absolutely used for relationship building, whether the person gives a darn about football or not.
The future ties to alumni, and yes, their donations, do not solely come from the academic heads. Every single major donor is invited to functions, including football games. Doesn't mean they will attend, but I assure you, as those relationships are built, they certainly are invited.
VT has a brand outside of Virginia, and athletics is a huge part of that.
I am making this argument in the context of an earlier post wondering why G5 schools even try.
Don't be so short sighted. How do you think donors are courted? They are courted with every tool available.
How many out of state students does VT get? How do you think they heard of VT? I have no doubt that VT has departments ranked very well, but your area has a LOT of academic schools.
There is no doubt that your football program extends the brand throughout the Eastern seaboard - no doubt. Being in the ACC helps, and you know it. Would you be in the ACC without athletics? Who do you think approves the grant dollars? Are you saying that none of them pay attention to football, or just know VT exists because?
You guys can ride me all you want, but FBS football put VT on the map - otherwise you would be just another State school.
(In response to this post by Pylons)
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Applications nor enrollment are struggling. They are healthy at worst.
If you think research deals are done in suites, you have no clue. I've worked as faculty (at VT and elsewhere) and in academic administration (including VT Provost's office)...that's not how research deals work.
If you think the ACC "approves grant dollars," you are even more clueless. Academics don't get driven via athletics conferences. It boggles my mind that people believe this is the case.
Would VT be in the ACC without athletics? Probably not. It's an athletics organization FFS.
VT gets a lot of out-of-state students from MD, PA, and NJ. I was one of them. Athletics had zero to do with my decision. Having worked in admissions at VT, I'm confident that I understand what drives those decisions. Can athletics play a part? Sure. Is that the norm? No. Word-of-mouth and published rankings carry far more weight than some televised football game with a halftime promo ad that nearly no one watches.
(In response to this post by Big12 guy)
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increased over the years? Does VT have a cap on the numbers of students it can accept from out of state or a requirement on the percentage of in state students it must take? What is so attractive about Virginia Tech for the students from the northeast?
(In response to this post by Pylons)
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Up from more like 25% when I did admissions stuff in the 90's.
I don't think there's a "cap" per se, but I'm sure there's a target.
Students have always tended to head south more than north for college on the east coast. Some of that is weather (even though Blacksburg weather isn't exactly "southern" weather...it's all relative though...Blacksburg weather is definitely better than State College weather). It used to be cost too...when I picked VT as a PA kid, VT out-of-state cost wasn't a whole lot different from PSU in-state. (That seems to have changed though based on a quick check.)
(In response to this post by Poultrygeist)
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RJHokie
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you want to look at VT and other Virginia colleges.
Link:
Statistics
(In response to this post by Poultrygeist)
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are used for personal relationships, and if you don't think that is a part of grants, then you aren't paying attention. I also didn't say that academics are are driven through athletic conferences. I said you would not be in the ACC if it wasn't for athletics, and if you don't think that helps drive student enrollment through awareness, then I'm discussing this with a wall.
There is a reason that institutions of higher learning have been losing money for decades on athletics - why FCS schools are spending 10's of millions to become FCS. Most big time academic donors do not contribute to athletics, but every big time athletic donor donates to academics.
If you worked in admissions with out of state students, then it's the level of scholarships that is the driving force for most of those kids, then parents. I'd be willing to bet that it is extremely rare if athletics comes up in processing those kids. That does not mean it's not a factor as those parents and kids make their decisions. While I'm not saying there is a direct link, I am asserting that it's much more than "can athletics play a part". It certainly is in Ohio with all of the competition for students in that neck of the woods. It's a factor in Kansas as well. Not so much in New England, I'll give you that, but out in the sticks? It's a big factor.
(In response to this post by Pylons)
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grant decisions. Presidents wouldn't even be involved in research grant work unless it's a really unique situation. REALLY unique.
Relationships between any level of academician in a suite play no part. That's not how academic people and their research works. Academics work with folks who provide mutually beneficial research relationships. Athletics has nothing to do with that. Pick an average faculty researcher and they probably can't even name half the schools with which they share an athletic conference. Hell, a pretty healthy percentage probably couldn't even name their conference.
I worked with lots of students in- and out-of-state. Athletics just doesn't ultimately matter for most. I think people on an athletics board easily forget there's a whole big world out there that doesn't care much about sportsball.
If athletics are so important, why is VT academically so healthy? (or maybe you think VT isn't?) We're a model of mediocrity at best in the high-visibility sports in recent history.
(In response to this post by Big12 guy)
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None of it means anything. It's nothing more than little perks for rich people to share with other rich people. That's why Toledo and Kent State have no fans and lose money on football.
(In response to this post by Big12 guy)
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Untold donations and research dollars because of a decision at the football stadium. You're right, it's the rich and well connected that are in those suites, not diehard fans. Those medical students and alumni have a connection to the university long after they graduated through athletics.
It's why FCS schools are scrambling to be at the FBS level.
Maybe VT is different, but I don't think so.
(In response to this post by Baltimore_Hokie)
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with a decision made *because of* a football game. There are all sorts of ways to connect with and entertain donors.
And I know nothing of the story, but I have no doubt there was a lot more to it than just a football game conversation.
(In response to this post by Big12 guy)
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of athletics. Athletics is just a tool, like a country club and golf course, to further relationships with current and future donations.
Sitting in a suite with the pageantry of a FBS football game, especially at the Toledo level, is an emotional event, and displays the students in a way that a library can not.
(In response to this post by Pylons)
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But, as a fan, I don't care if the football program is a commercial for the school, or provides rich A-holes another place to hob knob and show off. My interest is in the football program winning and achieving. And, football programs are nothing, less than nothing, without fans.
Also, I can state this for you with zero uncertainty - Toledo having a teaching hospital and med school has zero to do with its football program.
(In response to this post by Big12 guy)
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The opposite.
You have your priorities, that is clear. Now, if the athletic department can get on the same page as academics, not the other way around, you would find more donors - which every athletic program not in the P2 is scrambling to find.
Relying on media money will not cut it anymore.
(In response to this post by Baltimore_Hokie)
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Stech
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has delivered success. We are ranked higher than William and Mary in US News and World Report. Most if not all never thought that would happen. We had almost 58,000 applicants for the 2025 class. We have incredible partnerships in Northern Virginia now, with more coming to Richmond and Hampton Roads. He’s not only a big thinker, he’s a big doer Academically and Corporate Partnership wise.
Now I want to say on the Athletic side Whit has been very good on most nonrevenue Athletic Sports. That was a big deal when we joined the ACC, and something we promised the ACC. However, he is almost completely lost on Revenue Sports, number 1 being 🏈 80%, and number 2 being 🏀 20%. He also is not very good at fundraising. He simply needs to retire from Virginia Tech.
People are investing in Sands for Academics and Corporate Partnerships, but they are not investing in Whit for revenue sports and fundraising. Thank you for your service Whit, but the world has changed since 2020, and we need a different skill set.
(In response to this post by VTCALS72)
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funds with Sands and the academic side. I don't believe Whit has the freedom to compete with the academic side at all. Rather athletics is and always will be funded primarily within the larger academic umbrella. I don't think Sands or any other president not in the SEC would allow that.
(In response to this post by Stech)
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Whit is empowered to be successful, raise the brand, generate revenue and be sucessful in any creative way he can.
But he and his staff has absvolutely not business accumen in current college athetes... Bunch of nice guys, pushing pencils and just repeating every year the same tried and true. (Because they dont know better)
(In response to this post by VTCALS72)
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(In response to this post by 1947Sunbowl)
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cincinatti (he didnt do good there either); more a staffer than an entrepreneur ...
This was Steegar's last hire, and Sands trusted him. At the time, VT thought football was automatic and build the broad other sports ....VT was just happy to be in the ACC, and content, the instiution needs not reach any more; got the conference with its' peer a dream for 50 years after being leftt behind. If your goal is just getting to a place, and you get it, what more do you strive
(In response to this post by NokieHokie)
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the big hitters on the academic side are the same ones on the athletic side. I'd also be shocked if the two sides don't share/compare lists of donors and potential donors.
(In response to this post by VTCALS72)
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saret
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I hope you're right, but I don't think anyone knows.
(In response to this post by reestuart)
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Stech
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like he did for the football Head Coach, Offensive Coordinator and the Defensive Coordinator jobs. In fact we just hired another DC with no DC experience. I hope it works out, but if you keep doing the same thing over and over again, you usually get what you have always gotten. I just can't let Whit off the hook for making the same mistakes over and over again. I love Virginia Tech first, and if he can't get it done, we need someone that can...and fast!!
(In response to this post by VTCALS72)
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challenge him. That seems to be a fundamental aspect of his bureaucratic strategy.
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saret
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(In response to this post by VTCALS72)
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Thing is when a real reasonable analysis of his performance is done, he does not look anywhere near as bad as you guys try to make him. It is not about Whit as much as it is pointing out that your performance evaluation criteria for a VT AD is way over the top.
(In response to this post by saret)
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(In response to this post by VTCALS72)
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There is no P4, yet you guys keep spouting it like VT is in the same zip code as the P2 and it is just VT personnel that are keeping us down. You may wish there was still a P4 but there is not. So Whit should be judged on running what has been labeled as a Mid 2 while the P2 is getting more and more of the money.
And, you could be very right that it is above Whit's capabilities to run a successful P2 program but VT is not one. So evaluate him on running a M2 program.
(In response to this post by Poultrygeist)
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(In response to this post by VTCALS72)
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saret
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who has risen several layers above his competence.
(In response to this post by Poultrygeist)
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saret
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him a pass. Got it!
(In response to this post by VTCALS72)
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It doesn't matter who the driver is. You could have the greatest driver in the world behind the wheel and you're never going to even come close to winning that race.
VT could hire the best AD in the country and it wouldn't really matter. Sure, there's definitely room for some marginal improvement, but the structural disadvantages (lack of gigantic piles of $$ and enormous fanbase) are too great to overcome in the current pay-to-win climate.
** Edited by HokieNoVA at 3/12/2025, 11:40:41 AM
(In response to this post by Stech)
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Stech
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can make a huge difference. They know how to hire football coaches, they know how to raise money, they know how to navigate NIL, they know how to pay players. I heard it from someone you trust (yes I can guarantee that). that many Assistant AD's at Blue Blood programs are very interested in the Virginia Tech AD job. They think it is a sleeping giant, that just needs to be awaken with the right AD. Call it a Sands for Academics hire, not many if any thought Sands could pass William and Mary in US News and World Report, get almost 58,000 students to apply to Tech when a lot of schools are getting less applications, or forge incredible business partnerships with Northern Virginia.
*for instance
PS Not many if any thought Frank Beamer could take a school that was contemplating FCS, to the heights he did. Yes it is a different time, but don't underrate what a leader can do for organization. The Arizona State Football Coach shocked some people just a couple of months ago, if you want something more recent.
** Edited by Stech at 3/12/2025, 1:55:15 PM
(In response to this post by HokieNoVA)
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(In response to this post by Stech)
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Only thing, When do Sands/Burress Hall have those hard discussions..... or does Tim really want to.... (he's got alot of other things to balance to assure VT academically progresses....
(In response to this post by Stech)