I don't generally engage in Fantasy Realignment...
...and part of why this board has been so good for so long is that most pontificating is pretty grounded in reality. So, with that preamble in place, I wanted to make a dumb Fantasy Realignment suggestion.
For the love of God, can the ACC and Big 12 not just agree to a trade of SMU, Cal, and Stanford for UCF, WVU, and Cincinnati?
Like, this should not be hard. I know the Texas schools would balk at SMU and I know the CA schools are willing to eat the travel to be in a league with some fancy pants ACC schools. But, goodness, both leagues would make soooo much more sense.
30 Replies
1y
For Oklahoma State and WVU.
(In response to this post by Gobbler-100)
1y
(In response to this post by Victor Tango)
1y
for recruiting and other things, I would think it would be in the ACC's best interest to only add UCF is if it adds USF too. By having 4 FL schools for now, the schedule can be arranged so teams have the opportunity to play at least 2 FL schools (1 home and 1 away) most years. For basketball and other sports with similar schedules, teams would get to play 2 home games and 2 away games (or series) every year. Then when/if FSU and/or Miami leave the conference, the ACC would still have 2 FL schools assuming the conference doesn't disband.
(In response to this post by Gobbler-100)
We would be trading Texas and California for Ohio and West Virginia WRT
the ACCN. We already have Florida.
Of the three schools you mention, only Cincinnati gives us a big new state.
If anything, I think we should add a few more Western schools to ease the travel for the Cali schools and give us Mountain TZ and more Pacific TZ games. I don't think ASU and Utah were thrilled about going to the Big XII. Should have tried to get them while we had a chance. I'm sure Phillips didn't do a damn thing to make this happen.
** Edited by Maroon Baboon at 1/15/2025, 2:11:30 PM
(In response to this post by Gobbler-100)
1y
Its mostly on cultural fit.
BIG - Primarily Large Enrollment Research Schools with AAU status
SEC - Primarily Rural Schools that are Football First and low Olympic sports
ACC - Primarily Very High Academic Schools with excellent Olympic sports
BIG 12 - Primarily Flyover Schools with Good Football Fanbases that the BIG SEC are not interested in.
Stanford etc do not fit in the Big 12 at all.
(In response to this post by Gobbler-100)
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Stech
1y
They wanted Stanford, Cal and SMU, because of recruiting and their academic chops. This bias is a major reason that FSU and Clemson sued the conference.
Now to be fair, Notre Dame is running circles around the SEC and the B1G commissioners too. Notre Dame will receive ~$20 million if they win the National Championship and Ohio State will receive around ~1 million if they win Monday night. I will say it again, Negotiation Dame is running circles around the ACC with Jim Dame Phillips leading the way for them and they are running circles around the SEC and B1G too. They get ~20 times the money for a National Championship, play an easier schedule playing 2-11 postseason ACC for 5 games, don't have to play in a Conference Championship Game and will almost always if not always play at home for the first round of the playoffs.
*Jim Phillips worked at ND, and his kids went there.
PS I would have taken SMU over UCF on your list. To be fair, I think most if not all think that was a good move, but ND will probably benefit the most with many alums, fans, and they like to recruit in Dallas/Fort Worth.
** Edited by Stech at 1/15/2025, 11:59:12 AM
(In response to this post by Gobbler-100)
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TerryD
1y
All it takes is some cajones to bet on one's own program instead of taking the easy way out by running to join a conference.
Anyone can do it if its so advantageous. Everyone should try it.
(In response to this post by Stech)
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gman86
1y
Yes, any school with a death wish can become independent. It would not have anything to do with cojones... it would be stupidity.
The reason independence works for ND is the religious affiliation (the premier Catholic football team in the country) and their football success mostly achieved before any of us were born.
I'm not hating on ND. But in your defense of their position, please don't talk pretend that any other institution can succeed on ND's path. ND enjoys privileged status and they take advantage of that to the fullest extent. Enjoy the privilege, but don't call out other schools for not having "cajones".
(In response to this post by TerryD)
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TerryD
1y
They may be able to cut TV deals on their own.
Why don't they if ND's position is so easy, peasy and peachy ?
(In response to this post by gman86)
1y
Texas may not have the recent success of Ohio State or Alabama, but its brand is just as big and its core market is much, much bigger.
Texas couldn’t make the Longhorn Network fly. If Texas could have made more money as an independent, Texas would be independent. No school has a higher opinion of itself than TU.
(In response to this post by TerryD)
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2hhoop3
1y
there are no where near enough eyes for either the Bucknuts or Bear's boys to do that and come remotely close to their conference deal. Even ND couldn't do it without the Big East/ACC and now the Big Ten that juiced ND's latest NBC deal. ND didn't take a big risk when they got started as TV was not that significant. They did build their brand early on and have reaped rewards. However, neither OSU or Bama had their equivalents of Lindsay Nelson and Paul Hornung building a brand with Sunday morning replays. The biggest risk ND took was holding fast through 30 years of not much until their football program could approach legitimacy again. Congrats on the patience.
(In response to this post by TerryD)
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TerryD
1y
If you don't think that it took balls to be the only major football independent who didn't run for safety in numbers into a conference, then we will just have to disagree.
It also took fortitude to resist the constant pressure over thirty five years by conferences, networks and hell, just about all of college football, to force ND to join a conference.
It instead decided to go it alone through some tough times by ND standards. Now, it is getting the reward from betting on itself and making good decisions to maintain that status.
(In response to this post by 2hhoop3)
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2hhoop3
1y
not a risk but, as you say, we will have to disagree on how much of a risk. We do not disagree it took fortitude to hold out. As my reply said, I do not believe Ohio State or Alabama could have done it then and I feel even more certain they could not do it now. Being a long time ND fan you should understand how the TV landscape developed for ND and what the relative risks actually were going back to the start.
(In response to this post by TerryD)
1y
... park all their teams not named football in their conferences? What would ND have done if every team they have had to be independent?
** Edited by Atlee Hokie at 1/15/2025, 9:18:12 PM
(In response to this post by TerryD)
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TerryD
1y
Plus, ND basketball was independent for one hundred years, it could be again.
Ideal for it? No, but football independence would trump all other sports in your scenario.
(In response to this post by Atlee Hokie)
1y
(In response to this post by TerryD)
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Stech
1y
but ND isn’t the problem. It’s ND slaughtering the Power Conferences in negotiations. Starting with ND getting ~$20 million for winning the National Championship Monday night, while Ohio State gets ~$1 million if they win. There is more, but you get the point.
** Edited by Stech at 1/15/2025, 6:33:08 PM
(In response to this post by Big12 guy)
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Stech
1y
(In response to this post by Big12 guy)
1y
be playing competitive football, and would be competing for, or plating in the playoffs. SWC, B12, SEC - it doesn't really matter to them. The individual school network that was mostly for tier 3 sports, that was active in only the state of Texas probably isn't a good metric to use.
Texas is in the SEC because they, and OU, could actually up the SEC's media contract. Out here, the discussions surround that they were tired of losing to teams like K-State, and would rather lose to Alabama and other programs in the SEC.
If Texas was independent, they would have the ability to schedule blue bloods in the SEC, Big 10, ACC, and any other school out there. Not many have that kind of scheduling power (like a ND), but Texas would be one of them.
(In response to this post by Stech)
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Stech
1y
there, than being independent.
Even Army and Navy aren’t independent anymore. Right now if I am Notre Dame with the advantages they have got over the P2 and the entire P4, they have no reason to want anything else. The question is are Sankey and Pettiti going to let them keep getting away with it, they are the only ones with power to balance it out more.
I said when the rules came out for the 12 team playoff (not sure if you were posting here then) that Notre Dame completely outmaneuvered all the other conferences. I said, it and got banged on it so hard, I left posting on the board for about a month. The other person that got tremendous criticism was Jack Swarbrick, especially from some Notre Dame Alums and fans (not TerryD and Domer, we may disagree on some things, but they are smart guys), saying he would never get a bye in the playoff. I said it then, and I say it now, it was a brilliant move by him. They get the bye by not having to play in a Conference Championship game, they will get a home game almost always, if not always because of their ratings. Then there is ~20 million versus ~1 million for winning the National Championship, never having to play in a Conference Championship. Absolutely brilliant!!
(In response to this post by Big12 guy)
1y
there is money there, and contractual issues, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the P2 does just that. The ACC and the B12 really can not afford such a luxury, as not only do they need the money, but with conference champions getting a bid, it gives an opportunity for an upset, and the ACC or B12 getting an at large. Much like Clemson and SMU just did, as I don't think they would have received an invite without the ACC championship in their back pocket.
I'm not at all convinced that ND is in as good of a sweet spot as you think. A 2 or 3 loss ND could play into the playoffs with a conference championship bid, but by being independent, they will not get that opportunity.
A three loss VT could get into an ACC championship game, and win the thing to get a playoff bid - so I really think the advantage goes to the conference members, not ND. There is no scenario I see moving forward that an independent ND will not get a pathway to the Playoffs. They might get more money in the Big 10, and better access to the playoffs, but clearly, especially after this year, they may never, ever, need too. Their is just too much history there for the networks to leave them out.
(In response to this post by Stech)
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Stech
1y
I’m not underrating the Notre Dame advantage, but many don’t want to see it. It will be interesting to see what happens to the playoff rules between now and 2030. I think some balancing out is coming, but if you don’t think there is a need to balance them out, then nothing changes if you are right. Let’s see what happens and talk then.
PS A lot of college football insiders saying drop the Conference Championship game, use that weekend for the Army Navy game, go to 16 team playoff with no byes, and make up the Conference Championship money with week zero lost rivalries. Bring back Oklahoma Nebraska, Virginia Tech West Virginia, Penn State Pitt, Kansas Missouri. Play them at neutral stadiums if they need to, to make up the money for the Conference. Several games money will dwarf the one Conference Championship game money if they just construct the money payout so the Conference gets some of it, like the Conference Championship game.
(In response to this post by Big12 guy)
1y
same deal for basketball and the Olympics similar to what ND has? In other words, could you see the same deal cut for a team like FSU - and let them get their own deal on their football?
(In response to this post by TerryD)
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TerryD
1y
It decided decades ago to stay independent when others joined conferences, bet on itself, made some decisions and negotiated some deals.
The easy course would have been to join a conference like FSU, Miami, Penn State, etc...
FSU could have tried to stay independent and cut an ND deal in the early Nineties, for instance. It didn't.
ND would have earned zero this season from the playoffs if it didn't make it, unlike conference teams.
ND was told for a couple of decades that independence was archaic and holding it back, that it would never compete as an independent
Now that ND is winning playoff games and earning playoff money, it's an unfair advantage all of a sudden o be an independent ?
There is no rule or anything else holding other programs back from being independent.
** Edited by TerryD at 1/15/2025, 1:09:23 PM
(In response to this post by Big12 guy)
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Stech
1y
allow this to happen. You of all people know that I was one of the first, if not the first, to say this when the rules for the 12 team playoff were announced, that ND negotiated for a huge advantage for themselves. I was basically a lone wolf that could see the advantage ND got from great negotiating.
PS I was just answering the posters question about the trading of schools that he suggested and why it will never happen, and why it didn't happen in the first place.
(In response to this post by TerryD)
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obguthr
1y
that I have mocked up over the years, WVU is always in the ACC. Cincinnati and Louisville should always be together, not necessarily in the ACC though. I don't really care about UCF, but I suppose they are too big to ignore.
(In response to this post by Gobbler-100)
1y
I never have a shred of respect for ACC leadership when I look at the missed opportunities, the odd selections, the disjointed timing, the scheduling, the champ game locations, the media contracts. Across the board it is just amazingly bad.
(In response to this post by obguthr)
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obguthr
1y
Always reactive, never anticipating the competition"s next move.
(In response to this post by HokieAl)