Sports Business Journal: FOX and B1G have deal in place
Acurious situation has been afoot during Big Ten media rights negotiations this year that has caused a lot of head scratching by TV network and digital executives.
Two senior Fox Sports executives — Mark Silverman and Larry Jones — are taking active roles during the conference’s media rights negotiations.
That means Silverman, Fox Sports president and COO, and Jones, Fox Sports executive vice president of business, have been in the room and listening intently as executives from rival companies — Amazon, Apple, CBS, ESPN, NBC and Turner — make their pitches for the conference’s rights packages.
Big Ten Commissioner Kevin Warren leads these meetings, of course. He has run the conference for three years and has final say on which company ends up with the rights. Kerry Kenny, the conference’s senior vice president of television, media, analytics and emerging platforms, also plays a big role during each of these meetings.
Executives say they’ve never encountered this type of situation before where they have had to make their pitch not only in front of a competitive network, but actually to its executives.
It’s all on the up-and-up, even if the situation is unusual. Sources say Fox Sports already has a deal in place to renew its Big Ten pact, so it’s not as though Silverman and Jones are gaining trade secrets as a way to enhance their own bid.
Silverman
The presence of Silverman and Jones in these negotiations is part of a deal Fox Sports cut with the Big Ten when the previous rights agreements were signed in 2017.
The earlier deal gave Big Ten Network control of the media rights to the Big Ten conference for an undetermined period of time. Silverman, who ran Big Ten Network back in 2017, was part of the negotiations with ESPN as a BTN rep back then.
This year, Silverman and Jones are taking part in these talks as designated representatives of BTN, the channel in which Fox Sports is a majority owner and the entity that controls the Big Ten rights.
Jones
Essentially, the two Fox Sports executives are acting as both designated BTN representatives and media consultants, which is one reason why the Big Ten did not hire a media consultant to help it through these negotiations.
For months, one of the biggest mysteries surrounding the Big Ten’s negotiations has been about who Warren was using as a consultant. There hasn’t been a clear answer. The idea that it’s two well-established network executives certainly comes as a surprise.
The specifics of Fox’s new deal are not set — not even Big Ten or Fox executives know how many games that package will have as the conference still is trying to sell one, two or possibly three more packages to other suitors. The number of games going to Fox is dependent on how the conference structures these other packages. The conference expects to award these packages by Memorial Day.
Fox will have the main package and its deal will feature at least as many games as its current deal, probably more. Under its current agreement, Fox carries 27 Big Ten football games each season.
So far, traditional media companies CBS, ESPN and NBC have taken meetings with the Big Ten and Fox Sports.
CBS is looking for top-level football games to replace its Saturday afternoon SEC game, which is leaving for ESPN after the 2023 season.
NBC has pushed for a weekly Big Ten game that it can package with Notre Dame for a Saturday doubleheader. NBC has the rights to Notre Dame football through the 2025 season.
ESPN carries more of the top college football games than any other network and wants to keep a piece of the always highly rated Big Ten.
Turner Sports also has expressed interest, though its executives have waited on making a formal pitch until Discovery’s purchase of WarnerMedia passed through regulatory channels. That $43 billion deal became official April 8, and they are expected to meet with the Big Ten in the coming weeks.
On the digital front, Amazon and Apple also have had discussions with the Big Ten. Both digital companies increasingly have been using sports as a way to gain more subscribers for their streaming services. Amazon will carry the NFL’s “Thursday Night Football†exclusively this fall, and Apple just started carrying Friday night MLB games exclusively earlier this month.
The presence of so many bidders all but ensures that the conference will see a healthy increase over the six-year, $2.64 billion deal it signed with ESPN and Fox in 2017.
This situation presents an illustration of the college sports landscape where the top two college sports conferences essentially are aligned with rival networks.
ESPN holds all SEC rights through the 2033-34 school year and owns and operates the SEC Network. Fox Sports will be the Big Ten’s main rights holder and is the majority owner of the Big Ten Network.
[Post edited by goldendomer at 04/16/2022 10:56AM]
Two senior Fox Sports executives — Mark Silverman and Larry Jones — are taking active roles during the conference’s media rights negotiations.
That means Silverman, Fox Sports president and COO, and Jones, Fox Sports executive vice president of business, have been in the room and listening intently as executives from rival companies — Amazon, Apple, CBS, ESPN, NBC and Turner — make their pitches for the conference’s rights packages.
Big Ten Commissioner Kevin Warren leads these meetings, of course. He has run the conference for three years and has final say on which company ends up with the rights. Kerry Kenny, the conference’s senior vice president of television, media, analytics and emerging platforms, also plays a big role during each of these meetings.
Executives say they’ve never encountered this type of situation before where they have had to make their pitch not only in front of a competitive network, but actually to its executives.
It’s all on the up-and-up, even if the situation is unusual. Sources say Fox Sports already has a deal in place to renew its Big Ten pact, so it’s not as though Silverman and Jones are gaining trade secrets as a way to enhance their own bid.
Silverman
The presence of Silverman and Jones in these negotiations is part of a deal Fox Sports cut with the Big Ten when the previous rights agreements were signed in 2017.
The earlier deal gave Big Ten Network control of the media rights to the Big Ten conference for an undetermined period of time. Silverman, who ran Big Ten Network back in 2017, was part of the negotiations with ESPN as a BTN rep back then.
This year, Silverman and Jones are taking part in these talks as designated representatives of BTN, the channel in which Fox Sports is a majority owner and the entity that controls the Big Ten rights.
Jones
Essentially, the two Fox Sports executives are acting as both designated BTN representatives and media consultants, which is one reason why the Big Ten did not hire a media consultant to help it through these negotiations.
For months, one of the biggest mysteries surrounding the Big Ten’s negotiations has been about who Warren was using as a consultant. There hasn’t been a clear answer. The idea that it’s two well-established network executives certainly comes as a surprise.
The specifics of Fox’s new deal are not set — not even Big Ten or Fox executives know how many games that package will have as the conference still is trying to sell one, two or possibly three more packages to other suitors. The number of games going to Fox is dependent on how the conference structures these other packages. The conference expects to award these packages by Memorial Day.
Fox will have the main package and its deal will feature at least as many games as its current deal, probably more. Under its current agreement, Fox carries 27 Big Ten football games each season.
So far, traditional media companies CBS, ESPN and NBC have taken meetings with the Big Ten and Fox Sports.
CBS is looking for top-level football games to replace its Saturday afternoon SEC game, which is leaving for ESPN after the 2023 season.
NBC has pushed for a weekly Big Ten game that it can package with Notre Dame for a Saturday doubleheader. NBC has the rights to Notre Dame football through the 2025 season.
ESPN carries more of the top college football games than any other network and wants to keep a piece of the always highly rated Big Ten.
Turner Sports also has expressed interest, though its executives have waited on making a formal pitch until Discovery’s purchase of WarnerMedia passed through regulatory channels. That $43 billion deal became official April 8, and they are expected to meet with the Big Ten in the coming weeks.
On the digital front, Amazon and Apple also have had discussions with the Big Ten. Both digital companies increasingly have been using sports as a way to gain more subscribers for their streaming services. Amazon will carry the NFL’s “Thursday Night Football†exclusively this fall, and Apple just started carrying Friday night MLB games exclusively earlier this month.
The presence of so many bidders all but ensures that the conference will see a healthy increase over the six-year, $2.64 billion deal it signed with ESPN and Fox in 2017.
This situation presents an illustration of the college sports landscape where the top two college sports conferences essentially are aligned with rival networks.
ESPN holds all SEC rights through the 2033-34 school year and owns and operates the SEC Network. Fox Sports will be the Big Ten’s main rights holder and is the majority owner of the Big Ten Network.
[Post edited by goldendomer at 04/16/2022 10:56AM]
Link:
Linky
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Stech
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works. ESPN holds all SEC rights through the 2033-34 school year and owns and operates the SEC Network. Fox Sports will be the Big Ten’s main rights holder and is the majority owner of the Big Ten Network."
Before that: "The presence of so many bidders all but ensures that the conference will see a healthy increase over the six-year, $2.64 billion deal it signed with ESPN and Fox in 2017."
Power 2 could here, whether we like it or not.
As much as I wanted the ACC to be tier 1 in football and survive, it's time to take our head out of the sand and join a tier 1, "if" it's still available. Especially if what 33laszlo99 is reading and hearing and right, and pay for play is coming (look at the Supreme Court Decision closely) and it will bust up the GOR.s.
BTW, did anybody else get a tweet from 24/7 that Virginia Tech Student Athletes will get paid for improving their academic performance?
Before that: "The presence of so many bidders all but ensures that the conference will see a healthy increase over the six-year, $2.64 billion deal it signed with ESPN and Fox in 2017."
Power 2 could here, whether we like it or not.
As much as I wanted the ACC to be tier 1 in football and survive, it's time to take our head out of the sand and join a tier 1, "if" it's still available. Especially if what 33laszlo99 is reading and hearing and right, and pay for play is coming (look at the Supreme Court Decision closely) and it will bust up the GOR.s.
BTW, did anybody else get a tweet from 24/7 that Virginia Tech Student Athletes will get paid for improving their academic performance?
(In response to this post by goldendomer)
4y
Would inviting Kansas, Oklahoma State and some of the other Big12 remnants to form a division be enough to get a contract bump since this content would come from Fox?
I think there are schools in the Big12 that would strengthen all of our sports. Basketball would once again be undisputed. Football, wrestling, baseball, softball etc could all see some good additions.
Would it increase the value of the ACC Network?
I feel like setting up a 3rd major conference (even if the payouts are behind the top two) makes it easier for a few teams to move ahead eventually without damaging the rest too much. Become the undisputed 3rd conference and create elbow room below.
I think there are schools in the Big12 that would strengthen all of our sports. Basketball would once again be undisputed. Football, wrestling, baseball, softball etc could all see some good additions.
Would it increase the value of the ACC Network?
I feel like setting up a 3rd major conference (even if the payouts are behind the top two) makes it easier for a few teams to move ahead eventually without damaging the rest too much. Become the undisputed 3rd conference and create elbow room below.
(In response to this post by Stech)
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HOO86
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Adding viewers gets a bump to the Tier 1 contract, and adding geography that adds subscribers gets a bump to the ACC Network. How big a bump the ACC can get depends on how much the added property or team adds audience and how much population they add from the state they reside in adds subscribers for the ACC Network.
Adding a football power with a big audience like Texas and Oklahoma adds. Since that ship sailed, when I saw that I thought that the ACC needed to jump at Cincinnati and make plans for WVU when they can get out of the Big XII. The ACC did neither. The Big XII took Cincinnati, and the ACC promoted "The Alliance" and pushed for Comcast to add the ACC Network.
Could the ACC grow out into Texas and the Plains? Sure. But that's really spreading out. The Big XII has chosen do this and to go far and wide now with its moves. BYU to Central Florida. Will that work? I don't know. We'll see. Teams in C-USA hated it.
Adding a football power with a big audience like Texas and Oklahoma adds. Since that ship sailed, when I saw that I thought that the ACC needed to jump at Cincinnati and make plans for WVU when they can get out of the Big XII. The ACC did neither. The Big XII took Cincinnati, and the ACC promoted "The Alliance" and pushed for Comcast to add the ACC Network.
Could the ACC grow out into Texas and the Plains? Sure. But that's really spreading out. The Big XII has chosen do this and to go far and wide now with its moves. BYU to Central Florida. Will that work? I don't know. We'll see. Teams in C-USA hated it.
(In response to this post by 4x4hokies)
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PaNDalum
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The level of doom and gloom about the ACC here has avalanched into a rock pile of resignation and inevitability VERY quickly. Is there any other possible scenarios being discussed elsewhere?
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(In response to this post by PaNDalum)
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there will be one dominant conference. Well we said it here too, but that's about the only two places I think people said it and of course it has become true.
PS With Texas and Oklahoma in the SEC, the B1G officially needs to poach too. USC-w and Oregon next?
PS With Texas and Oklahoma in the SEC, the B1G officially needs to poach too. USC-w and Oregon next?
(In response to this post by TerryD)
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from multiple sources are talking about a huge money gap between the SEC/B1G and the ACC, PAC and B12 and the SEC still doesn't have Texas and Oklahoma in their financial mix. You know the B1G whether they admit it or not, is going to try to keep up. They always try to play the Public Relations high road, but they have already invaded the ACC and the B12. USC-w goes out and tops LSU's ridiculously high offer for Kelly and takes a guy who was headed to the New SEC, that's significant to Notre Dame and a shot at the New SEC. They did it for a reason and it sure isn't about the PAC TV money. Many think they are buying their way into the New B1G which will span from coast to coast mostly in the North, but USC and probably UCLA will be a part of that. Add Stanford and Oregon and that's a heck off a move money wise for them. Notre Dame is going to see the writing on the wall, so will UVA, GT, and maybe UNC, Duke or Miami .
Then throw in everything that is coming out of Washington DC is that student athletes are being taken advantage of financially, whether it be a "unanimous" Supreme Court decision (not many of those days around big public issues) or Congress getting in the game literally, and yes the board has turned quickly. The ND guys weren't here in 2003, but the same thing happened. First it was denial, and then it was shock, and then people flipped to don't be left out of the top tier of college football. Some say history repeats itself, and right now it sure does seem that way and there is way more happening at so many levels now than 2003.
PS This is not just the ACC or the PAC or the B12, it's Notre Dame Independence too. I am waiting for TerryD who liked it when I moved to being concerned about the ACC, to answer whether he thinks Notre Dame's Independence could fall sooner rather than later. Even if he comes back with he thinks they will stay Independent for the next approximately 12-13 years like he always does, I am not buying he's not concerned it could be sooner rather than later whether he admits it or not. PaNDalum, what do you think is going to happen over the next 2-3 years or less?
Then throw in everything that is coming out of Washington DC is that student athletes are being taken advantage of financially, whether it be a "unanimous" Supreme Court decision (not many of those days around big public issues) or Congress getting in the game literally, and yes the board has turned quickly. The ND guys weren't here in 2003, but the same thing happened. First it was denial, and then it was shock, and then people flipped to don't be left out of the top tier of college football. Some say history repeats itself, and right now it sure does seem that way and there is way more happening at so many levels now than 2003.
PS This is not just the ACC or the PAC or the B12, it's Notre Dame Independence too. I am waiting for TerryD who liked it when I moved to being concerned about the ACC, to answer whether he thinks Notre Dame's Independence could fall sooner rather than later. Even if he comes back with he thinks they will stay Independent for the next approximately 12-13 years like he always does, I am not buying he's not concerned it could be sooner rather than later whether he admits it or not. PaNDalum, what do you think is going to happen over the next 2-3 years or less?
(In response to this post by PaNDalum)
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The NCAA restructuring and the media deals might really spark a “blow it up and start overâ€. I’m shocked how quickly ND went from railing against paying players to “all in on big boy footballâ€. The fallout from the next three years won’t be kind to ND maintaining independence - too many powerful influences will make it very difficult. Swarbrick and Jenkins are both nearing 70 - their legacy will be where ND lands. I was so sure that our alignment was best with ACC schools. That ship sank. The B1G will probably be our final resting place - wording intentional- but it will look nothing like the Big Ten we turned down in 1999.
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ND has always been at the forefront of change, believe it or not, from the forward pass to beat Army in 1913 to a national TV contract with the Dumont Network in 1950 to Notre Dame Highlights in the 1960's and the NBC deal in 1991.
ND has to adapt to the current and future of NCAA football or relegate itself to a second tier of football.
ND has to adapt to the current and future of NCAA football or relegate itself to a second tier of football.
(In response to this post by PaNDalum)
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by using football and basketball. If you are not in Northeast like the Ivy League, it's really hard to get your school noticed. However, Notre Dame in football and Duke in basketball have done just that in towns not located in the northeast to say the least. Surveys show that many top students go to a school because of their football team or basketball team's success. Yes they even pick Notre Dame and Duke over Ivies because of the football or basketball teams success.
Consequently, I am not surprised that Notre Dame is adamant about being Tier 1. I hope that Virginia Tech's Administration is the same way. We missed out on the ACC in 1953 because of being against Bowl Games. It was a gigantic mistake, that took us 50 years to rectify. We must insist that our Administration lead us to Tier 1 football, Tier 2 would be another huge mistake.
[Post edited by Stech at 04/20/2022 08:57AM]
Consequently, I am not surprised that Notre Dame is adamant about being Tier 1. I hope that Virginia Tech's Administration is the same way. We missed out on the ACC in 1953 because of being against Bowl Games. It was a gigantic mistake, that took us 50 years to rectify. We must insist that our Administration lead us to Tier 1 football, Tier 2 would be another huge mistake.
[Post edited by Stech at 04/20/2022 08:57AM]
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and they have gone with the SEC and the B1G as the only Tier 1 football Conferences.
I had hoped it wasn’t so, but once Texas and Oklahoma made their move and Washington DC said throttle down, I don’t think there is anything right now that can stop it,
I had hoped it wasn’t so, but once Texas and Oklahoma made their move and Washington DC said throttle down, I don’t think there is anything right now that can stop it,
(In response to this post by PaNDalum)
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...for five years and then as the end of the ACC GOR gets closer, joins one of the two P2 conferences, most likely the Big Ten.
(In response to this post by Stech)
4y
Contract and then we choose the Big 10.
[Post edited by goldendomer at 04/19/2022 11:10AM]
[Post edited by goldendomer at 04/19/2022 11:10AM]
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the ND package. It would make a ton of sense.
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ACC and ND.
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So, 2030, when the GOR is easier to handle.
(In response to this post by Stech)
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to the demise of the ACC. But they are also fully focused Pac 12 being picked apart.
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(In response to this post by goldendomer)
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Surlyhorns.com is a Texas board.
The both have extensive threads. Sometimes very heated, I read, don't post.
[Post edited by goldendomer at 04/19/2022 11:21AM]
The both have extensive threads. Sometimes very heated, I read, don't post.
[Post edited by goldendomer at 04/19/2022 11:21AM]
(In response to this post by Stech)
4y
This one here is awesome because it's almost always civil and friendly discourse. Dirtburglars (aka LandThieves2.0) on the other hand, is rarely either.
(In response to this post by goldendomer)
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HOO86
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They had the Auburn guy who insults everyone especially the ACC, the WVU people and a TCU guy who insulted too, and the Oklahoma fan who pushed chart after chart about joining the PAC12. Having to read through all of their stuff to find anything interesting got frustrating.
(In response to this post by OU_Sooner)
4y
heavy-handed posters rule that thread.
(In response to this post by HOO86)
4y
But in general this board blows it away because civility and information.
(In response to this post by OU_Sooner)
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TerryD
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But, you argued with me when I said it made no business sense for ND to join an ACC doomed for Tier II status and less money but likely was destined to join the Big Ten for the most $$$ instead.
Welcome aboard !!!
[Post edited by TerryD at 04/18/2022 10:14AM]
Welcome aboard !!!
[Post edited by TerryD at 04/18/2022 10:14AM]
(In response to this post by Stech)
4y
The writing appears to be on the wall. I guess it will be dependent on what the next TV deal is (NBC)?
[Post edited by Millpoint at 04/18/2022 5:30PM]
[Post edited by Millpoint at 04/18/2022 5:30PM]
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obvious that the Big East would no longer be a Power Football Conference. It became obvious almost over night with Miami the linch-pin leaving when we asked them to sign that they would stay. (I say we, because Virginia Tech came up with that idea per Tranghesse)
I was hoping that Notre Dame would join the ACC and that Miami, Florida State and Virginia Tech with the right coaches would become Top 10 again, so I pushed hard to put the pressure on ND. However, you are right, ESPN and Fox don't want it. Like the article says, the other networks will only be a small player. It's become obvious that ESPN wants some of the ACC to join n the SEC and that Fox wants some ACC, PAC to join the B!G with ND.
The Irony is that, Virginia Tech doesn't want to leave the ACC to be tier 1 and Notre Dame doesn't want to leave Independence to be Tier 1 or join the B1G, but I think it's now likely to happen sooner, rather than later. What do you think?
I was hoping that Notre Dame would join the ACC and that Miami, Florida State and Virginia Tech with the right coaches would become Top 10 again, so I pushed hard to put the pressure on ND. However, you are right, ESPN and Fox don't want it. Like the article says, the other networks will only be a small player. It's become obvious that ESPN wants some of the ACC to join n the SEC and that Fox wants some ACC, PAC to join the B!G with ND.
The Irony is that, Virginia Tech doesn't want to leave the ACC to be tier 1 and Notre Dame doesn't want to leave Independence to be Tier 1 or join the B1G, but I think it's now likely to happen sooner, rather than later. What do you think?
(In response to this post by TerryD)
I loved being in the Big East.
Not gonna lie.
While I think the big drag for the BE was the aftermath of missing out on Penn State. But Miami being "back" kinda made up for it football wise. The round robin size was great. It's what a conference should be. Playing everyone every year, and still having schedule space for OOC rivalries (UVa for us) and other OOC games. When bowl season rolled around, I rooted for the BE teams beyond just "conference loyalty".
And the basketball was great. Loved the style and the teams. Being with all those original Big East schools and playing in the greatest conference championship tournament annually in Madison Square Garden was fabulous. I didn't even seem to mind Notre Dame hanging around.
I am strictly speaking from a fan's perspective. And can't speak to the bottom line.
But when the ACC came calling for Miami, it created a prisoner's dilemma of sorts. Everyone needed to act on their own to preserve their self interests.
In the end, we had to sort of back our way into the ACC. And what is sad, most schools involved in the ordeal have seen their stature in football and basketball decrease rather than increase since then (the original ACC teams, the BE football schools and the BE basketball only schools).
I just have to wonder what would have happened if the Big East and the ACC would have thought on a grand scale and did a full merger, including the non-D1A football/basketball only schools. If the collective could have kept northeastern basketball and given BE football schools a place to play, it would have been awesome. I still think the piecemeal way the ACC did expansion set the whole thing up for failure. And don't even get me started on the MIA-SYR-BC, oops, MIA-VT-and later BC thing. Amateur hour.
I'm just lamenting and reminiscing for the most part here. But I think there's a ton of lessons here on how not to do conference realignment.
[Post edited by Maroon Baboon at 04/18/2022 5:30PM]
While I think the big drag for the BE was the aftermath of missing out on Penn State. But Miami being "back" kinda made up for it football wise. The round robin size was great. It's what a conference should be. Playing everyone every year, and still having schedule space for OOC rivalries (UVa for us) and other OOC games. When bowl season rolled around, I rooted for the BE teams beyond just "conference loyalty".
And the basketball was great. Loved the style and the teams. Being with all those original Big East schools and playing in the greatest conference championship tournament annually in Madison Square Garden was fabulous. I didn't even seem to mind Notre Dame hanging around.
I am strictly speaking from a fan's perspective. And can't speak to the bottom line.
But when the ACC came calling for Miami, it created a prisoner's dilemma of sorts. Everyone needed to act on their own to preserve their self interests.
In the end, we had to sort of back our way into the ACC. And what is sad, most schools involved in the ordeal have seen their stature in football and basketball decrease rather than increase since then (the original ACC teams, the BE football schools and the BE basketball only schools).
I just have to wonder what would have happened if the Big East and the ACC would have thought on a grand scale and did a full merger, including the non-D1A football/basketball only schools. If the collective could have kept northeastern basketball and given BE football schools a place to play, it would have been awesome. I still think the piecemeal way the ACC did expansion set the whole thing up for failure. And don't even get me started on the MIA-SYR-BC, oops, MIA-VT-and later BC thing. Amateur hour.
I'm just lamenting and reminiscing for the most part here. But I think there's a ton of lessons here on how not to do conference realignment.
[Post edited by Maroon Baboon at 04/18/2022 5:30PM]
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I had no loyalty or affection for the Big East, none now to the ACC nor will I the Big Ten if/when ND joins.
I am an ND fan, not a fan of any artificial construct or any grouping of schools.
Similarly, I am a Pittsburgh Pirates and Steelers fan, not a fan of the NL Central or AFC North.
I am an ND fan, not a fan of any artificial construct or any grouping of schools.
Similarly, I am a Pittsburgh Pirates and Steelers fan, not a fan of the NL Central or AFC North.
(In response to this post by Maroon Baboon)
A big difference though is that there are subjective criteria that gets
a team to the post season in college basketball and football. Unlike the NFL and major league baseball. One's livelihood as an athletic department is tied to conference mates in college more than any other level.
(In response to this post by TerryD)
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TerryD
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That has been the answer in 2012, 2018 and 2020.
11-1 got ND a NY6 bowl in 2021.
So, do that and not worry about "conference mates" or their performance.
[Post edited by TerryD at 04/19/2022 8:33PM]
11-1 got ND a NY6 bowl in 2021.
So, do that and not worry about "conference mates" or their performance.
[Post edited by TerryD at 04/19/2022 8:33PM]
(In response to this post by Maroon Baboon)
ðŸŽs & ðŸŠs
Trying to compare ND to VT in this regard or ND to almost any other school is a nonstarter.
ND doesn't know what it's like to be a real conference member. And no other school really understands what it's like to be a football independent for life like ND has always been.
ND doesn't know what it's like to be a real conference member. And no other school really understands what it's like to be a football independent for life like ND has always been.
(In response to this post by TerryD)
4y
IMO. We had 7 conference games and two were against Temple and Rutgers who were embarrassingly bad. We had a lot of OOC stinkers that didn’t account for that either. We developed some nice rivalries with Pitt/Syr/Miami but they did not match our fan support. It was nice having WVU in conference. ACC has its issues but I like playing geographic rivals better.
(In response to this post by Maroon Baboon)
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EDGEMAN
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BE basketball did everything possible to keep us out, then when they finally did allow us to join, they gave us the most expensive buy-in in the history of college athletics. Thankfully we got the ACC invitation before paying all of that "blood money" to the BEC. They were probably the best BB conference at the time, but there is no way we should have ever considered paying that much to join.
Don't remember the ACC charging us anything to join for all sports, not just the #2 sport.
After VT, Miami, and BC left, the BE dropped their buy-in for all sports membership significantly...maybe less than half what they charged us for basketball only? Eventually the "basketball only" schools kicked out everyone that played Div-1A football, taking the name with them when they left. Too bad that didn't happen in the 90s...the Big East might have become a good "all around" sports conference, especially if they could have picked up PSU. Oh well, the BB-only schools killed any chance that would become a major sports conference.
Don't remember the ACC charging us anything to join for all sports, not just the #2 sport.
After VT, Miami, and BC left, the BE dropped their buy-in for all sports membership significantly...maybe less than half what they charged us for basketball only? Eventually the "basketball only" schools kicked out everyone that played Div-1A football, taking the name with them when they left. Too bad that didn't happen in the 90s...the Big East might have become a good "all around" sports conference, especially if they could have picked up PSU. Oh well, the BB-only schools killed any chance that would become a major sports conference.
(In response to this post by Maroon Baboon)
4y
Big East was like a dive bar. And I mean that in the absolute best way.
(In response to this post by Maroon Baboon)
BEFC had more passion. IMHO, top to bottom....
it was better than the ACC in the 1990's and early 2000's. The ACC was pretty much FSU and the rest. I miss those WVU games. Even the Miami games had more passion back in those days. All those crazy games vs. Cuse and Pitt. We didn't hang around too long as a full member. The leaders in Providence (basketball first attitude) killed the conference. Tech should've become a full member back in the early to mid 90's.
(In response to this post by reestuart)
E
EDGEMAN
4y
For some odd reason, Miami actually played good football in the Big East. They've sucked* since joining the ACC.
* Sucked being a relative term, but compared to the teams they fielded during their Big East days, it's no contest. Also thought VT played a tougher brand of football in the Big East.
* Sucked being a relative term, but compared to the teams they fielded during their Big East days, it's no contest. Also thought VT played a tougher brand of football in the Big East.
(In response to this post by Old Line Hokie)
The only programs that are undoubtedly better off than they were before
expansionpalooza started in 2003 (prestige and competition wise) are Clemson and Louisville. Everyone else is either the same or worse.
It is shocking that Miami hasn't won an ACC title yet. And has only made one title game (out of maybe the worst division in all of P5). Unexplainable considering how good they were the previous two decades.
It is shocking that Miami hasn't won an ACC title yet. And has only made one title game (out of maybe the worst division in all of P5). Unexplainable considering how good they were the previous two decades.
(In response to this post by EDGEMAN)
D
daveinop
4y
Link:
NIL etc.
(In response to this post by Stech)
S
Stech
4y
for those that want to see it. To me at least, the amount of change is mind boggling.
"Virginia Tech Athletics announces plans to financially reward academic progress
Virginia Tech Athletics also announced on Thursday that it plans to make financial awards available to student-athletes as a result of the Supreme Court's decision last June in the Alston vs. NCAA case.
"We are pleased to be able to offer this financial incentive for our student-athletes to make the type of academic progress that will benefit them for years to come after graduation," Babcock said. "We are currently finalizing our criteria for this program and plan to roll out the details to student-athletes, their families and our coaching staffs this summer. We anticipate beginning this financial reward package beginning in Fall 2022. Thanks to the tremendous success of our Drive for 25 campaign and the generosity of our Hokie Club donors, we intend to be very competitive in this space to ensure Virginia Tech remains a very attractive destination for the nation's top student-athletes."
"Virginia Tech Athletics announces plans to financially reward academic progress
Virginia Tech Athletics also announced on Thursday that it plans to make financial awards available to student-athletes as a result of the Supreme Court's decision last June in the Alston vs. NCAA case.
"We are pleased to be able to offer this financial incentive for our student-athletes to make the type of academic progress that will benefit them for years to come after graduation," Babcock said. "We are currently finalizing our criteria for this program and plan to roll out the details to student-athletes, their families and our coaching staffs this summer. We anticipate beginning this financial reward package beginning in Fall 2022. Thanks to the tremendous success of our Drive for 25 campaign and the generosity of our Hokie Club donors, we intend to be very competitive in this space to ensure Virginia Tech remains a very attractive destination for the nation's top student-athletes."
(In response to this post by daveinop)
4y
I remember this detail from the most recent B1G media contract. The GoR was between the schools and The BTN rather than between the schools and the conference. This is an example of an esoteric business operation being moved from the non-profit realm to the corporate sector. I envision this as the direction we are headed for all athletics functions.
When I see that list of suitors for the B1G media rights it stirs my imagination. ESPN cannot afford to lose out on all of the B1G content. They need to be in the B1G footprint for at least one game each Saturday. Their ad rates will be seriously depressed without it. The B1G will squeeze ESPN for every penny they can get. My sinister side imagines what panic might ensue if The B1G, suddenly, out of nowhere, poached South Florida. Not a move anyone is talking about, but take a long look at USFs resume compared to UCF, Florida State, and Miami. The SEC will see the writing on the wall: The B1G is moving South. The value of UVA and UNC would skyrocket. If the SEC tries to take in all of the properties in the neighborhood, just to keep them away from The B1G, they will be adding too much redundancy. ESPN does not want more SEC content in FL, GA, SC. Their choices are:
Pay through the nose for UVA, VT, UNC, Duke, Ga Tech, Clemson, FSU etc. This dilutes the FB superiority while putting strain on the media payouts. The B1G remains well-paid and unharmed.
ESPN may simply try to bump up the payout to the entire ACC. Could they make it attractive enough to prevent movement to The B1G?
ESPN could spend whatever it takes to get a piece of The B1G content, and concede the Atlantic Seaboard to The B1G. This would, of course, be against the wishes of The SEC, and it would signal to all whether the SEC - ESPN relationship is a true partnership. ESPN would still have too much overlap in The Southeast whether The ACC schools went to The SEC or to The B1G. But if they go to The SEC, ESPN might be unable to afford to keep a part of The B1G footprint.
I'll bet the Alliance has war-gamed a zillion scenarios just like this. The SEC and ESPN and all of the other media players have done the same I'm sure. Realignment could be heating-up.
When I see that list of suitors for the B1G media rights it stirs my imagination. ESPN cannot afford to lose out on all of the B1G content. They need to be in the B1G footprint for at least one game each Saturday. Their ad rates will be seriously depressed without it. The B1G will squeeze ESPN for every penny they can get. My sinister side imagines what panic might ensue if The B1G, suddenly, out of nowhere, poached South Florida. Not a move anyone is talking about, but take a long look at USFs resume compared to UCF, Florida State, and Miami. The SEC will see the writing on the wall: The B1G is moving South. The value of UVA and UNC would skyrocket. If the SEC tries to take in all of the properties in the neighborhood, just to keep them away from The B1G, they will be adding too much redundancy. ESPN does not want more SEC content in FL, GA, SC. Their choices are:
Pay through the nose for UVA, VT, UNC, Duke, Ga Tech, Clemson, FSU etc. This dilutes the FB superiority while putting strain on the media payouts. The B1G remains well-paid and unharmed.
ESPN may simply try to bump up the payout to the entire ACC. Could they make it attractive enough to prevent movement to The B1G?
ESPN could spend whatever it takes to get a piece of The B1G content, and concede the Atlantic Seaboard to The B1G. This would, of course, be against the wishes of The SEC, and it would signal to all whether the SEC - ESPN relationship is a true partnership. ESPN would still have too much overlap in The Southeast whether The ACC schools went to The SEC or to The B1G. But if they go to The SEC, ESPN might be unable to afford to keep a part of The B1G footprint.
I'll bet the Alliance has war-gamed a zillion scenarios just like this. The SEC and ESPN and all of the other media players have done the same I'm sure. Realignment could be heating-up.
(In response to this post by goldendomer)
Could you explain the USF angle to me?
You write: My sinister side imagines what panic might ensue if The B1G, suddenly, out of nowhere, poached South Florida. Not a move anyone is talking about, but take a long look at USFs resume compared to UCF, Florida State, and Miami.
Can you expand on this some. Why USF?
Also. a general comment. I always thought a big move for the B1G would be going right down the eastern seaboard to take UVa, UNC (and maybe Duke), GT (all AAU) and also Clemson and FSU (elite football programs). Not sure if they are thinking that big, but would give the B1G a real foothold in the South rather than just adding one G5 program. What are your thoughts on this?
Can you expand on this some. Why USF?
Also. a general comment. I always thought a big move for the B1G would be going right down the eastern seaboard to take UVa, UNC (and maybe Duke), GT (all AAU) and also Clemson and FSU (elite football programs). Not sure if they are thinking that big, but would give the B1G a real foothold in the South rather than just adding one G5 program. What are your thoughts on this?
(In response to this post by 33laszlo99)
4y
The reason I propose USF is because they are actually available. They are not encumbered by the same level of restrictions as the ACC schools. The reason I didn't suggest UCF is because USF has a more promising academic trajectory. They have much larger research expenditures than Central and The B1G could possibly use that fact to rationalize their lack of AAU membership. UCF is a larger school, but both are growing wildly. The football success at Central is a secondary consideration, B1G likes to point to academics. I think any Florida school that joined The B1G would be a hugely popular destination for visiting fans from the other B1G schools.
Caveat: We really don't know if the GoR's will be invalidated by Pay-for-Play. There could be enough litigation material to carry the decision out to 2036 anyway.
Caveat: We really don't know if the GoR's will be invalidated by Pay-for-Play. There could be enough litigation material to carry the decision out to 2036 anyway.
(In response to this post by Maroon Baboon)
4y
B1G could essentially box SEC in to only be exclusive in Alabama, Miss, Ark, Tenn, and Louisiana. Do so by taking ACC and PAC’s best properties along with a couple Big 12 if they wanted (to get into Texas, for example).
I’ve live in Tampa and USF is an afterthought there. UCF has traction in Orlando.
I’ve live in Tampa and USF is an afterthought there. UCF has traction in Orlando.
(In response to this post by Maroon Baboon)
D
daveinop
4y
Too many significant players want a piece of the action.
Didn't know CBS was looking to replace the SEC Saturday afternoon slot. Would be a nice Alliance game.
[Post edited by daveinop at 04/16/2022 11:45AM]
Didn't know CBS was looking to replace the SEC Saturday afternoon slot. Would be a nice Alliance game.
[Post edited by daveinop at 04/16/2022 11:45AM]
(In response to this post by goldendomer)
2
2hhoop3
4y
at the CFP much to the chagrin of ESPN and the SEC now recognize what the NFL figured out earlier. You maximize your payout by spreading your product to multiple networks. It keeps ALL the networks more honest, at least as much as can reasonably be expected from TV execs, while tipping the power to the content owner and away from the provider. It will be interesting to watch the next rounds of contract renegotiations.
(In response to this post by daveinop)
Does ESPN control the ACC until 2035?
Can the ACC try to make other deals with CBS, NBC or streaming services before 2035? If not, the ACC is screwed.
(In response to this post by 2hhoop3)
D
daveinop
4y
or whenever the hell that was.
My guess is if the ACC contract is undervalued to the point of making the conference competitively inviable, the conference would make the adds necessary to force reopening negotiations, vote to reorganize such that it would force renegotiation, or vote to directly or indirectly disband, i.e., vote to eliminate ANY penalties for leaving, which could leave ESPN with a contract for which it is grossly overpaying for content thru 2036.
My guess is if the ACC contract is undervalued to the point of making the conference competitively inviable, the conference would make the adds necessary to force reopening negotiations, vote to reorganize such that it would force renegotiation, or vote to directly or indirectly disband, i.e., vote to eliminate ANY penalties for leaving, which could leave ESPN with a contract for which it is grossly overpaying for content thru 2036.
(In response to this post by Old Line Hokie)
2
2hhoop3
4y
and the only ones who might be able to are the lawyers that have read and studied ALL the contract provisions. If the ACC signed an agreement with ESPN through 2035 with no provisions for look ins, adjustments due to industry changes, etc. then they got bad legal advice and/or they were idiots. As @33laszlo99 says below, there could be major shifts in the model that MIGHT impact contract provisions and/or the courts' interpretations of the contract. So far, at least to my knowledge, there has not been anything written or released to the public that analyzes the agreements. I am not aware of any media outlets making FOIA requests of individual member institutions which might mean the ESPN contract is with only the conference and, if so, probably done to keep the agreement private. Maybe some of the board lawyers can provide a more knowledgeable and nuanced analysis as this is just the Holiday Inn Express version. ;-)
(In response to this post by Old Line Hokie)
4y
I'm not a lawyer, but I like to repeat legal blather I've seen on the internet. Some observers feel that if the courts rule in favor of college athletes being paid by the schools, (likely) then the business model of college sports will have changed so drastically that the GoR contracts will be unenforceable. Not a slam dunk, but it gives me hope.
(In response to this post by Old Line Hokie)
S
Stech
4y
Hope for what? TIA
(In response to this post by 33laszlo99)
4y
Stech there are two hurdles to overcome for The ACC to escape from this hideous media contract. The first is the GoR. Pay-for-Play might facilitate that (iffy). If the GoR is gone there is still that media deal that runs 'til 2036. Some possible solutions to that could be:
ACC schools vote to disband the conference. They would all be free to form a New ACC with willing partners and some defectors.
They might only threaten to disband and ask ESPN to sweeten the payout "or else." The problem here is that ESPN would balk at having four schools in NC and a couple of underperforming members up North.
They could try to form a smaller ACC that would fit well into an Alliance format with The B1G and others.
They could form a smaller ACC that would fit well as The SEC Atlantic Division.
Please add any of a thousand possible outcomes that might emerge. The main thing is; the GoR could be broken by an upcoming court decision. We don't know for sure, but that would set the ACC schools free to improve their lot in one or more of those thousand ways.
ACC schools vote to disband the conference. They would all be free to form a New ACC with willing partners and some defectors.
They might only threaten to disband and ask ESPN to sweeten the payout "or else." The problem here is that ESPN would balk at having four schools in NC and a couple of underperforming members up North.
They could try to form a smaller ACC that would fit well into an Alliance format with The B1G and others.
They could form a smaller ACC that would fit well as The SEC Atlantic Division.
Please add any of a thousand possible outcomes that might emerge. The main thing is; the GoR could be broken by an upcoming court decision. We don't know for sure, but that would set the ACC schools free to improve their lot in one or more of those thousand ways.
(In response to this post by Stech)
D
daveinop
4y
I haven't thought this through but the conference could reorganize itself or change its revenue distribution methods in any number of ways.
the assumption is the ACC is screwed because of contract duration (which was purportedly necessary to get the ACCN); but the provisions are what really matters and I don't think a single media outlet has reported what is actually in it. I'm not optimistic given the track record of the former commissioner, but I'd be shocked if there are no look-ins on a contract of that duration. If the approvers assumed a flat market over a decade+, they should all be fired; or fired at.
in the end, if the ACC isn't getting current market value for its games ($/eyeballs), or something very close to it, I think it could probably break the football TV contract with ESPN on bad faith if nothing else.
[Post edited by daveinop at 04/20/2022 09:36AM]
the assumption is the ACC is screwed because of contract duration (which was purportedly necessary to get the ACCN); but the provisions are what really matters and I don't think a single media outlet has reported what is actually in it. I'm not optimistic given the track record of the former commissioner, but I'd be shocked if there are no look-ins on a contract of that duration. If the approvers assumed a flat market over a decade+, they should all be fired; or fired at.
in the end, if the ACC isn't getting current market value for its games ($/eyeballs), or something very close to it, I think it could probably break the football TV contract with ESPN on bad faith if nothing else.
[Post edited by daveinop at 04/20/2022 09:36AM]
(In response to this post by 33laszlo99)
E
EDGEMAN
4y
...the SEC and B1X. They are on their way to forming two "mega conferences" now, so that would just accelerate that shift.
Whoever didn't jump would be left in a "Big East" situation of football irrelevance, so you would hope that both conferences want a foothold in Virginia. Hopefully both VT and UVA will both make that next jump.
Whoever didn't jump would be left in a "Big East" situation of football irrelevance, so you would hope that both conferences want a foothold in Virginia. Hopefully both VT and UVA will both make that next jump.
(In response to this post by 33laszlo99)
S
Stech
4y
Schools to the B1G (ND to the B1G). I think there will be 24 in each the SEC/ESPN and B1G/Fox, possibly 4 divisions of 12, we really don't need to expand the playoff if those 48 break off. The four qualifying playoff teams will be the 4 Division winners.
If I was a betting man and had to bet on what we know right now, I would bet on Virginia Tech to the SEC and UVA to the B1G, but still playing each other like we did when we were Big East and they were ACC. Maybe it was because we both were better, but those football games had more fans and better ratings.
If I was a betting man and had to bet on what we know right now, I would bet on Virginia Tech to the SEC and UVA to the B1G, but still playing each other like we did when we were Big East and they were ACC. Maybe it was because we both were better, but those football games had more fans and better ratings.
(In response to this post by 33laszlo99)
4y
a particular classification. You could have a ‘no ceiling’ league but that would be like 10-20 schools. That would then trigger mass conference/classification changes. Better end result for most ACC schools, for sure. But I doubt it happens like I typed. And this type of arrangement may make player retention even worse.
(In response to this post by Stech)