Ask A Back Judge: Offensive And Defensive PI

Tristan Raisch

November 21, 2023 24

Virginia Tech — This week Tristan talks about a couple of pass interference calls from the NC State game. (Ivan Morozov)

As expected, that was a pass-happy offense which rolled into Blacksburg, so it’s no surprise that this week’s Ask a Back Judge will cover a few different pass interference situations.

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Ask A Back Judge 2023 VT-NC State Football

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24 Comments

Hokie67 November 22, 2023 at 7:01 AM

Why didn't the F call holding as soon as she saw the penalty? Also, why did the F throw the flag for PI when she wasn't looking at the ball - and most probably didn't see the ball? IF the jerseys would have been reversed - I wouldn't have thought anything about a no-call on this play - because the ball had passed the receiver when the PI contact was made. I'm pretty sure that we had a pretty good view of the play from our seats as we were looking down at the ball rather than trying to find the ball against the crowd background. BTW - IF the jerseys had been reversed - we would have been surprised that VT got the call.
1. TechHokie13 November 22, 2023 at 7:31 AM
  
  Both are excellent questions. We actually will rarely throw a flag the second we see something. We're actually trained to wait, process what we see, and make sure we have a flag-worthy foul. In this case, I'm sure she was waiting to make sure she could gauge the impact of the restriction - and at that point, the ball was incoming, so continuing to officiate the play takes priority over tossing a flag for a previous foul. As for why she's not looking at the ball, the ball simply isn't important there. All she needs to know is whether the ball is remotely catchable (in this case, does it land within a couple yards or so of the sideline). This is another thing we're trained to do, and it's really tough if you're used to watching football on TV: ignore the ball (the ball can't commit a foul, after all), and focus on the players. She does exactly what her mechanics require her to do here. And again, the ball passing the receiver is irrelevant if the defender's restriction caused the ball to be "uncatchable."
Seikoh_04 November 21, 2023 at 4:54 PM

That no call on 4th down site looked like PI to me. There wasn't much contact, I agree but it sure looked to me like it prevented Felton from being able to make an already difficult change of direction to the ball. I'm not sure he would have been able to catch it, but the little bit of contact made sure he couldn't. I can't help but think it might have been called different of not a free play.
1. TechHokie13 November 21, 2023 at 5:57 PM
  
  Your last bit is worth discussing a bit, because it's something we officials discuss all the time: *never* assume you know what another flag is, and use that as a reason to throw or not throw one of your own. The last thing you'd want is for a deep wing to pass on a DPI call because they thought offsides had been called, only to realize that was actually an illegal shift flag and now the offense is boned. So I doubt that first flag influenced the second call. Back to Felton: the thing that stands out to me is how Felton uses his hands. He's absolutely just as responsible for impeding his own progress as the defender is. There isn't a jersey tug or anything from the defender to indicate he's slowing Felton down, he's just occupying that space and turning toward the ball. There just isn't nearly enough of a restriction for me to think a flag was warranted.
  1. ShockWaveVT November 21, 2023 at 6:35 PM
    
    Sorry man, this just seems like one official trying to justify bad DPI calls / non-calls by other officials. Appreciate the "this is probably what they were thinking" point of view, but does not change the fact that the replays as shown demonstrate those were bad calls.. Felton uses his hands because the DB is has an arm extended and his hand on Felton's chest/shoulder/arm pushing him into the endzone and keeping him from bringing his right arm back to the ball. DPI clear as day that gets called 99/100 times on back shoulder throws. Saying Felton was using his arms to create separation does not justify a non-call for the DB grabbing his chest/shoulder/arm. The DB cannot impede the receiver's move to decelerate and move back toward the incoming pass. Nor was the DB actually playing the ball, he was turning toward Felton to impede his deceleration. If that kind of contact is going to be allowed then the Jones DPI was even more of poor call. The flag on Jones could have been a borderline Defensive Holding if anything at all. By the time the ball is in the air he is just tightly in phase with the receiver. Watch his arms carefully, they never impede the receiver's arms and while his body position blocks the receiver from jumping backward to better align with the incoming pass... that isn't DPI because he is looking back for the ball and isn't grabbing the receiver's arms. He's just maintaining his position, which he as a right to do
    1. TechHokie13 November 21, 2023 at 7:12 PM
      
      You're welcome to disagree, this is just one official's opinion. I'm curious what Tech fan's reactions would be if the jerseys were flipped, or without the maroon and orange glasses. All I can give you is perspective on calls that are similar to ones I've made dozens of times, doesn't mean I'm the be-all-end-all of the college football rule book ? For Felton's end zone play, I still see nothing other than the DB maintaining a position he has already legally established. A DPI call there would have been extremely ticky-tack, and highly questionable. The contact that elevates Jones's foul from a hold to DPI is very similar to my eye to the one that wiped out the NC State INT that's featured in the last clip above. Consistent call, at the very least.
      1. ShockWaveVT November 21, 2023 at 8:05 PM
        
        I have a comment below on the stark difference between the DPI called on NCSU's called-back INT and the DPI called on Jones, but I'll recap it here. The NCSU defender basically bumped/shoved Gosnell in the back - he wasn't maintaining position, or staying in phase, or even playing the ball. He simply bumped the receiver as the receiver jumped. contrast that with Jones jumping in phase with the receiver and looking back to play the ball while maintaining his position
VTScanlo November 21, 2023 at 4:34 PM

On the alleged NCSU “non-pick” play, is the rule about the pass being behind the LOS judged on where the receiver is when the ball is thrown or where he is when the ball is caught? If it’s really close, do the officials err on the side of calling it behind the LOS (no penalty) or at/beyond the LOS (penalty)? Officiating is hard…so many judgment calls have to be made. No envy here!
1. TechHokie13 November 21, 2023 at 5:50 PM
  
  That's an excellent question, and the answer is.... neither! It's all about where the ball is - the receiver is just a distraction. This certainly makes it a bit tricky, especially, like in that play, when the receiver turns upfield so quickly. But the rule is the ball must be caught (not touched - caught) behind the neutral zone. The Rule book states that OPI shouldn't be called if a screen pass is overthrown and lands beyond the line, except if a block prevents a defender from playing the ball. Otherwise, the receiver gets the line of scrimmage plus the length of the ball, by rule. In practice, we'll usually want the ball to clearly be a full yard beyond the line without being caught to call OPI.
2. ShockWaveVT November 21, 2023 at 6:46 PM
  
  it's where the ball is caught
El Paso Hokie November 21, 2023 at 3:20 PM

That NCSU pick play with the pass behind the neutral zone is one that VT should add to its playbook. That's a tough play to stop.
1. TechHokie13 November 21, 2023 at 3:28 PM
  
  Absolutely. I'm pretty sure Tech runs some variation of it, but that was a beautifully schemed/called/executed play by Anae. You'd like to see McDonald or the DB maybe react faster in a perfect world, but really that's just a tip of the cap to NCSt for catching Tech in a favorable coverage and exploiting it.
Cheesehokie November 21, 2023 at 1:50 PM

Not relevant to VT (unfortunately) but Saturday’s feature game on ABC between Washington and Oregon St included a controversial no-call on what turned out to be a critical TD for Huskies WR Rome Odunze. Oregon State fans wanted an OPI call. Curious on your take, given the topic of today’s article. Here’s a link to one angle from twitter/X. You may be able to find additional footage, but the most common ones I’ve seen don’t even begin the clip until after the alleged push off by the WR. Thx! https://x.com/thedigitaldam/status/1726621368815595906?s=12
1. TechHokie13 November 21, 2023 at 1:58 PM
  
  Great question, and thanks for the clip! It's a tough camera angle, but I think the no-call was correct. The thing I'm watching as the WR/CB run down the field together is how the spacing between them changes. For the engineers out there, we're pretending their torsos are cylinders. Ignore the arms (yes, really) and ask, do those cylinders get further away from each other? It doesn't look like it to me. The key for OPI here (I may have covered this before, but it's critical to the call every time) is that a receiver can use his arm to *maintain* separation, but not to *create* separation. The CB goes flying right at the end, so it looks pretty bad, but I don't see anything from the receiver (again, camera angle may be to blame here, but working with what I've got) that would displace him like that. It really looks like the CB just loses his balance as he tries to turn/jump for the ball.
  1. ShockWaveVT November 21, 2023 at 6:58 PM
    
    looked to me like right around the 10 yard line, their "cylinders" were very close together. Then around the 9 yard line, the WR's right hand shoved the DB's right shoulder and that is what knocked the DB out of phase and separated their cylinders by the time they passed the 5 yard line. The official on the sideline between the 5 & 10 and would have been shielded from seeing that shove clearly by the WR's body. unfortunately the reverse angle doesn't come in until the players are at about the 5 yard line and are already seperated
  2. Cheesehokie November 22, 2023 at 6:03 PM
    
    Thanks for the response! It’s too bad that there weren’t better video angles. Unsure whether the officials responsible for the play were in the correct position(s). But I agree with Shockwave’s comment below. I think it was OPI and the closest official couldn’t see that contact.
    1. TechHokie13 November 22, 2023 at 6:14 PM
      
      This is why you'll hear me harping on proper mechanics all the time (and it's something ACC deep officials have been outstanding on all year long). It's just so critically important to make sure every play is boxed with at least 2, but ideally 3 or 4, good angles on the action. This is one where, even though FJ is closest (and has a decent look on most of the action), BJ, LJ, and even U should be helping out. Assuming everyone was in the right spot and looking where they were supposed to, nothing jumps out at me there screaming OPI, so I've got to conclude they were on top of this one.
hokiepro November 21, 2023 at 1:10 PM

Lol “great call”; yeah OK, then they miss A TON more calls than they get right because the MINIMAL contact made by Jones is RARELY called….and the Felton play coming back to the ball on the free play I see called ALL the time. So, thanks for confirming how ridiculously inconsistent and bad they are
1. hokiepro November 21, 2023 at 1:17 PM
  
  And watching it again…WHAT are you looking at? Jones has BOTH arms outstretched not touching the receiver. If you’re saying it was a hold on his first contact at the break, I’d say ok; 10 yds; but in no game I’ve watched college or pro was the contact of a DB with his chest bumping the WR’s back been called PI
  1. hokiepro November 21, 2023 at 1:20 PM
    
    Felton is impeded by BOTH arms of the defender as he’s trying to reach the ball. Great to know that officials are all trained the wrong way
    1. TechHokie13 November 21, 2023 at 1:27 PM
      
      You and I clearly have quite different interpretations of the word, "impede." And hey, you're more than welcome to join your local officiating organization next year and show us all how it's done! ?
      1. HokieJB November 21, 2023 at 11:51 PM
        
        +1
  2. TechHokie13 November 21, 2023 at 1:29 PM
    
    If you want to see a chest bump to a receiver's back called DPI, may I humbly suggest you watch the final play I covered here. I cut off the replay, as the actual DPI wasn't the interesting part here, but that's exactly what was called on the NCSt defender. I would say that's quite consistent with what they called on Jones earlier.
    1. ShockWaveVT November 21, 2023 at 7:01 PM
      
      that was because the defender basically bumped/shoved #12 in the back without making any attempt to play the incoming pass. The result was Gosnell deflecting the pass instead of catching it and it happened to bounce directly to the DPI defender's arms. Jones was jumping in phase with the TE and looking back to play the ball

Ask A Back Judge: Offensive And Defensive PI

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