Ask A Back Judge: Bonus ACC Coverage

14 Comments

1. 

   ShockWaveVT November 21, 2023 at 7:39 PM

   Regarding the UNC-Duke "simultaneous possession" play. I'll be bold and say there was no simultaneous possession at all during this play. Otherwise if your description of simultaneous possession was accurate, every forced fumble where the defender grabs the the ball out of the hands of the offense would result in a dead ball a split second before change of possession. Because both players are holding/grabbing at the ball at the same time... (fumbles where the defender knocks the ball loose and it bounces around a bit before being recovered would proceed as we all would currently expect) So, let's break this play down. A. the defender, Duke #0 was not in the air at any point. Don't know why you're quoting rulebook situations involving simultaneous possession with both players in the air. They have no relevance to this situation. There is no simultaneous catch or simultaneous possession in mid-air. (there is no simultaneous possession when the players are rolling around the ground either) B. So we see UNC #18 catching the ball in mid-air, arms extended, catching the ball away from his body, and he is the only person contacting the ball as he is landing on his feet. Duke #26 had reached from behind to try and break up the pass but wasn't successful. C. As UNC #18 is landing on his feet and then starting to fall over, Duke #0 comes in and rips the ball out of his grasp before he goes down. I'm of the opinion that the conditions for completing the catch hadn't been met yet, the play so far has lasted less than half a second... so this is a loose ball / incomplete pass situation, not a forced fumble. That is to say, if the ball had gone flying out away from the players (instead of becoming caught up between their arms/bodies/etc) and landed on the ground, everyone likely would have called than a good pass break-up with the result of the play being an incomplete pass. C. So we have Duke #0 trying to grab the ball he knocked loose ball from UNC #18 and that loose ball is being contested by three (UNC #18, Duke #0 and Duke #28) different players grabbing pulling and shoving at the ball and each other. The ball is shifting around between the three players' hands, arms, chests, helmets, shoulders, bodies.. it's not secured, controlled, or possessed by anyone until Duke #26 clamps down on it, securing it between his right arm and his body. Up until that point it's a scrum for a loose ball that would happen to be an incomplete pass if it hits the ground before someone secures it. Imagine #18, #0 and #26 tipping and batting the passed ball around like a volleyball until #26 grabs it securely. D. Duke #28 is down when he secures the ball so the play is over at the moment he secures the ball. Long before UNC #18 is able to reaches in and grab at it in an attempt at 'simultaneous possession'. E. The refs clearly had no idea what happened in the scrum and instead of examining the replay to find out, they went with the "screw it, ties go to the offense" ruling that didn't actually reflect what happened..
   1. 

      TechHokie13 November 21, 2023 at 8:05 PM

      I absolutely love the way you're thinking about this, and these types of questions are part of why I was so excited to pitch this series to Will and the TSL crew. To answer that, we need to take a deeper dive into the rule book. "Simultaneous possession" only applies to either a fumble/backward pass (7-2-2b), forward pass (7-3-6), or kick (6-1-6b, 6-3-6b). In other words, a ball that is already loose. A ball in player possession stays in his possession until it is forced loose (2-4-1a). So by rule, you cannot have the ball ruled dead due to simultaneous possession because a player is in the act of forcing a fumble - the ball must already be loose, with the original ballcarrier clearly losing possession, before it can be ruled "simultaneous possession." I'm going to address point C because everything following that is dependent on that one. I believe I wrote this either elsewhere in the comments or on the Subs board (meant to get it into the article, but it didn't make it): when it comes to a potential simultaneous possession, the two (or more) players *as a unit* must survive the ground, stay in bounds, etc. - they must together satisfy all the conditions of a catch. So yes, if the ball had gone flying, it would have been an incomplete pass, as you correctly point out. However, so long as those catch criteria are satisfied, the ball is dead by rule the instant either player contacts the ground. The rule is, admittedly, a bit weird here. What it requires is for the officials to establish who, if anyone, contacted the ground first while the ball was simultaneously possessed (and I mean *clearly* contacted first, not splitting hairs here), and then - with that information in hand - confirm the catch was completed. If so, we essentially rewind the tape in our heads to the moment of simultaneous possession, and spot the ball there in the offense's possession. Still an excellent, and well thought-out question. Keep 'em coming!
2. 

   RonSwansonsAlterEgo November 17, 2023 at 2:43 PM

   Nice work. I really enjoy these. Think they still got the FSU safety wrong as there was no way Travis' momentum suddenly starts heading out of the end zone even if not touched. Very poor field awareness by him. He gave up over 10 yards. Get outside the pocket and heave the ball over the LOS and out of bounds.
   1. 

      TechHokie13 November 21, 2023 at 8:09 PM

      Glad you enjoyed it! And I very much agree. The rule book states that when in question, it is *not* a safety. As the HL and R were out of position, their doubt of whether he was in or out makes their call on the field a supportable one (which then makes it more difficult to overturn and rule a safety via replay). Travis very much was almost certainly heading backwards under his own power. The issue is, once he's contacted, with the ball still in the field of play (see my still above), there's no way to *definitively* conclude that the defender didn't contribute to him losing ground, so the ruling stands. Considering what happened to Travis this past weekend, I feel better about letting him have this one ?
3. 

   BGHokie13 November 17, 2023 at 7:23 AM

   Why does the NCAA make their rules unnecessarily difficult? A catch is when you have the ball with a foot in bounds and survive the ground (or make a football move?). We all know that. Unless more than one person is possessing the ball…then it is an automatic catch the second they hit the ground. See…you just can’t. No. And with the safety one. He is still running. There is no stoppage of forward progress because he is still trying to gain positive yards. The whole forward progress only needs to be used in obvious situations (not where the runner is still trying). It makes the job too difficult. In both cases the human eye and logic would dictate the calls were wrong. But…unnecessarily difficult rules create the situation where the world is upset and refs have to defend bad calls. And why can’t there always be a ref at the first down marker? Why make these older (and many times out of shape—sorry. It is true) run down the field and try to reach the play. A person standing at the line to make would solve a lot of these ridiculous situations where we (as viewers) see the ball down way past the mark and a guy comes running from way off screen to mark the ball where he can have no real idea honest idea.
   1. 

      TechHokie13 November 17, 2023 at 11:18 AM

      Interesting note about the simultaneous catch: there's no "surviving the ground" criteria for an individual player, but the players simultaneously possessing the ball, *as a group* need to survive the ground. In other words, if the ball pops out, it's an incomplete pass, just like it normally would be. But if the criteria for a catch are satisfied, we go back to the point in time and space where the simultaneous catch occurs, and the ball is dead there. Probably could have written that more clearly, but it makes sense if you're a bit sleep-deprived ? The point about parking an official at a critical line (line to gain, goal line, etc.) is a great one, and something I've thought about a bit this season, actually. The idea that you *must* have no more than 4 officials on the sideline is probably outdated, though it would definitely get crowded to have another human there. I think that's kind of the direction the NFL, and NCAA to a lesser extent, have gone with cameras pointing right down the line. Of course, as we saw against FSU, that doesn't necessarily guarantee success or consistency either. Moral of the story: if you're a ballcarrier trying to score, gain a first down, or avoid a safety, it's in your nest interest to not leave that up to the officials or replay booth.
4. 

   MISTERBIG November 16, 2023 at 9:27 PM

   It really helps understand the calls made and why! Thanks for the very interesting articles.
   1. 

      TechHokie13 November 17, 2023 at 11:24 AM

      Glad you found it interesting, thanks for reading!
5. 

   vfrhokie November 16, 2023 at 7:20 PM

   One thing I don't recall ever seeing is a play blown dead at the point of joint possession if the receiver rips it away and runs off with it.
   1. 

      TechHokie13 November 17, 2023 at 11:24 AM

      Joint possession is pretty rare, since more often you'll see one player clearly possess the ball, and then have it taken away in a clearly, distinctly, separate action ("give it to me, Roscoe!" is a great example). As officials, we'll let the action play out (for at least a dew seconds), and if one player clearly takes the ball in one action as opponents are fighting for it, we'll typically award it to him. It's only when, like in the UNC game, possession is contested we'll go with a simultaneous catch. I actually called simultaneous possession in a high school game the weekend prior, so it definitely happens. It also just happens to be the case that when 2 players are fighting for the ball, they tend to fall over, so the play would have been over regardless anyways.
6. 

   Seikoh_04 November 16, 2023 at 2:41 PM

   In real speed I can't make my eyes come even close to seeing what your still shot shows. I agree that if a ref was there in real time, it's a safety on the field.
   1. 

      TechHokie13 November 16, 2023 at 2:52 PM

      Yep, and any time it takes breaking a clip down frame-by-frame to come up with a ruling, that ruling is 100% missing the point. Hence I typically avoid using stills in my breakdowns. There were just so many controversial [when X happens, the play is immediately over or the foul has occurred] instances, it made sense to do it that way this time. Shoot, that shot is just when Travis was first contacted. It's not like his own momentum had completely stopped at that point. Easily the biggest miss of the weekend, as far as I can tell. All because R wasn't where he was supposed to be, and H couldn't get back in time. I think even from behind, R would have been able to rule that Travis retreated across the goal line on his own.
7. 

   VTChip November 16, 2023 at 1:12 PM

   Great stuff!!!! Thank you so much!
   1. 

      TechHokie13 November 16, 2023 at 5:57 PM

      Thanks, glad you enjoyed it!